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Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

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Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#21

Post by islon »

personlurking wrote: post #11

> ‘Adonaj es mi pastor. No mankare de nada’ (The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want) Mancare in Italian is to miss/need/be lacking, and although mancar in modern Portuguese is to limp, archaic Portuguese used it in the Italian sense. > I had to listen carefully to understand, hearing words like fazer (to do) and lavorar (to work) that sounded more like Portuguese and Italian than modern Spanish. I heard sounds lik…

"All of the other Romance languages use the term in its original meaning."

Nope, in (Brazillian) portuguese "mórbido" means morbid, like in english, and never means soft (suave, macio).

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#22

Post by cwmma »

pseingatl wrote: post #19
otikik wrote: post #17

In Spanish, "ladino" is an adjective, and its main meaning is "shrewd" or "sly". It's what you would call Aladdin's Jafar( http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Jafar ). I hope it's just a coincidence, but I would not be surprised to find some racism in the etymology of the word. My language has several of those.

Except that prior to 1492, there was no language known as "ladino." It was simply Spanish, and the Jews who were exiled continued to preserve the language. Does the community auto-identify with the term "ladino"? Or was this term imposed after the exile?

Ladino comes from the word Latin and according to Wikipedia used to be the term for literary Spanish

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#23

Post by personlurking »

islon wrote: post #21
personlurking wrote: post #11

> ‘Adonaj es mi pastor. No mankare de nada’ (The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want) Mancare in Italian is to miss/need/be lacking, and although mancar in modern Portuguese is to limp, archaic Portuguese used it in the Italian sense. > I had to listen carefully to understand, hearing words like fazer (to do) and lavorar (to work) that sounded more like Portuguese and Italian than modern Spanish. I heard sounds lik…

"All of the other Romance languages use the term in its original meaning." Nope, in (Brazillian) portuguese "mórbido" means morbid, like in english, and never means soft (suave, macio).

Correct. This is what I mean when I say original meaning.

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#24

Post by pokemongoaway »

azernik wrote: post #8

Somehow this article managed to discuss the status of a post-Holocaust European Jewish community without once mentioning Israel - where the largest community of Ladino speakers live, and where public radio has regular broadcasts in Ladino. If Sephardi Jews who take up the Spanish Law of Return don't seem attached to Ladino, it's because they're a self-selected group who have decided not to take up the more famous Law…

Whomever flagged or downvoted this comment should state the reason why they did so.

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#26

Post by lultimouomo »

personlurking wrote: post #11

> ‘Adonaj es mi pastor. No mankare de nada’ (The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want) Mancare in Italian is to miss/need/be lacking, and although mancar in modern Portuguese is to limp, archaic Portuguese used it in the Italian sense. > I had to listen carefully to understand, hearing words like fazer (to do) and lavorar (to work) that sounded more like Portuguese and Italian than modern Spanish. I heard sounds lik…

> Other direct matches and similarities: Fazer - To do (Portuguese), lavorare - to work (Italian), djente - people (Brazilian Portuguese pronunciation of gente), pássaro - bird (Portuguese). Even the z in roza, for rose, is typical of Portuguese pronunciation.

More italian matches:

* fazer -> fare (which is irregular and declined like the verb was "facere") * roza -> rosa (with a [z] sounding s) * djente -> gente (with both dj and g sounding [dʒ])

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#27

Post by zydeco »

pseingatl wrote: post #15
personlurking wrote: post #11

> ‘Adonaj es mi pastor. No mankare de nada’ (The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want) Mancare in Italian is to miss/need/be lacking, and although mancar in modern Portuguese is to limp, archaic Portuguese used it in the Italian sense. > I had to listen carefully to understand, hearing words like fazer (to do) and lavorar (to work) that sounded more like Portuguese and Italian than modern Spanish. I heard sounds lik…

The etymology for "macabro" goes back to Arabic: "Ma qabr" means "cemetery." I always wondered how "inshallah" became "ojalá". The 'j' sound in 'ojala' is the same as in 'pájaro' which in Ladino-as the article points out--is "pasharo" thus supplying the explanation. How do you say "you" in Ladino? Is "usted" (possibly from Arabic "ustaad") used, or do they use an Italian or Portuguese cognate?

"usted" in Spanish comes from a contraction of "vuestra merced" (your mercy, your grace), similar to "você" in Portuguese, "vostede" in Galician, and "vostè" in Catalan. It's still abbreviated as "Vd." sometimes in Spanish.

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#28

Post by netcan »

This is slightly tagential, but bare with me...

Nationalism and nation states. We live in a nationalist world. All places and all people are politically divided into nations. Nationalism is so dominant that we barely think of it as a thing.

Anyway.. ladino & it's speakers are descendants of refugees from the spanish reconquista and inquisition period. It's generally seen though a christian/muslim lens, but this isn't the only way of seeing it. It was also a rise of nationalism.

Muslim spain was part of a multi-ethnic empire. Post reconqista spain was an early form of nation state, with a national ideology. No room for minorities. Jews got the boot first, muslims followed. Refugees of an empire-to-nation-state transition.

In the Ottoman empire (where most refugees went) remained multi-ethnic. That's what empires are. This continued until the empire fell. From that point, the transition to nationalism is stark.

In what became turkey, there was no more room for Greeks or Armenians. Kurds were told to (melting pot) be Turkish. In the (many) other nation states that emerged from the ottoman empire (eg, iraq, syria), jews were effectively exiled in the mid-20th. Christians are now leaving. Cities & regions are dividing into homogenuous ethnic enclaves.

No room for minorities in an ethnic state.

Europe went through the same thing. The two wold wars moved europe from a collection of multiethnic empires to homogenuous national states.

History repeats over and over. When emperise gives way to nations, minorities suffer. Cultures die.

So, i'm suggesting, the reason that ladino (and 6,000 other minority languages) are dying is the absolute victory of nationalism in the 20th century. Nationalism has no room for minorities, their culture or their language. These things wither in nation states. Ladino, with its 600 years of history will die too.

It can't survive in the former ottoman empire because 90% of ladino speaking communities had to integrate or leave (just like the Spanish ultimatum that started it all). Most went to Israel, another national home, another place where ladino can't survive.

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#29

Post by tronko »

otikik wrote: post #17

In Spanish, "ladino" is an adjective, and its main meaning is "shrewd" or "sly". It's what you would call Aladdin's Jafar( http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Jafar ). I hope it's just a coincidence, but I would not be surprised to find some racism in the etymology of the word. My language has several of those.

Actually, it is more frequently called judeo-español (Jewish-Spanish) in Spain.

Re: Bosnians who speak medieval Spanish

#30

Post by tronko »

netcan wrote: post #28

This is slightly tagential, but bare with me... Nationalism and nation states. We live in a nationalist world. All places and all people are politically divided into nations. Nationalism is so dominant that we barely think of it as a thing. Anyway.. ladino & it's speakers are descendants of refugees from the spanish reconquista and inquisition period. It's generally seen though a christian/muslim lens, but this isn't…

Muslim Spain was not a peaceful place of convivence. Numerous pogroms and killings happend during that time, e.g. the Granada Massacre of 1066 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre

The contribution of Arabs to Spanish culture is enormous but that doesn't hide that in medieval times, almost everybody (including them) had barbaric customs.

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