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The Coders of Kentucky

nytimes.com

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Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#21

Post by opportune »

I'm from KY. This article is great, but in focusing on these coding bootcamp graduates, it misses the much larger picture of just how much brain drain occurs for actual CS graduates (who, to be fair, are much less likely to be from Eastern KY).

Right now they're taking millions in gov. money to train a small amount of people... but Kentucky graduates many more people with degrees in CS every year, by about an order of magnitude. There are basically no "good" software jobs in the state, so a lot of the good graduates leave to go work at Amazons and Googles. Training local talent is good, but you have to have more jobs than Interapt, OpenText, UPS, and GE to cultivate a local tech industry.

What I think Kentucky should do is focus on brining remote workers back, for now - once there's a strong local talent pool, then you can begin courting businesses, not vice versa. I know a guy who went back to care for parents while keeping his $200k+ salary, which makes you pretty rich in Kentucky terms, and also provides a huge tax benefit to the state. I know lots of people at big west coast tech companies that would like to take their west coast salaries back home, but as is, I don't think any of us would go back to work at Interapt.

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#22

Post by sanderjd »

dentemple wrote: post #6
marsrover wrote: post #3

As someone who has worked with bootcampers that didn’t know how to code before the bootcamp, I do not understand at all how they get jobs. My only theory is that the companies hiring them don’t understand the concept of negative work. Edit: as the downvotes start coming in from the bootcamp students. Edit again: as the flags start coming in from the bootcamp students.

Do you have any actual constructive criticism to go along with your sweeping generalization?

Rephrasing the parent's point in a way that I think is not inflammatory:

"Anecdotally, the bootcamp graduates that didn't previously know how to code who I have worked with have provided net negative value - that is the productivity cost to the rest of the team has been higher than the value they have provided - and I think companies who hire them must not be aware of this possibility."

This has not been my experience, but I don't think it is invalid for someone to point out that it has been theirs. Net negative work is definitely a real thing, it just isn't my experience that it is only or mostly a bootcamp graduate phenomenon. I think anyone early in their career is likely to provide net negative value (I sure did). Companies have to make an investment in the value entry level employees will eventually create for them. This isn't new or unique, it's the case for all entry level folks in all professions.

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#23

Post by [deleted] »

dron57 wrote: post #4

It's an inspiring story about jobs in middle America. But can places like Kentucky really compete with outsourcing hubs like India or Eastern Europe? I think it comes down to access to education. Coastal US businesses would be happy to "outsource" work to these areas if these skillsets were widely available there. Perhaps, trade schools and coding bootcamps like the one in this article will be enough to bring these j…

[deleted]

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#24

Post by opportune »

dron57 wrote: post #4

It's an inspiring story about jobs in middle America. But can places like Kentucky really compete with outsourcing hubs like India or Eastern Europe? I think it comes down to access to education. Coastal US businesses would be happy to "outsource" work to these areas if these skillsets were widely available there. Perhaps, trade schools and coding bootcamps like the one in this article will be enough to bring these j…

Because people from KY can freely move to CA/NY/WA and people from India can't, it's a lot harder to exploit the people in Kentucky to work for wages that are significantly less than what they're worth.

If Kentucky was a good outsourcing hub, then the good developers would eventually just leave to find better jobs, unless the local jobs paid almost as well, in which case it doesn't make much sense to continue outsourcing to Kentucky! Borders prevent Indians and Eastern Europeans from doing this

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#25

Post by gnarbarian »

opportune wrote: post #21

I'm from KY. This article is great, but in focusing on these coding bootcamp graduates, it misses the much larger picture of just how much brain drain occurs for actual CS graduates (who, to be fair, are much less likely to be from Eastern KY). Right now they're taking millions in gov. money to train a small amount of people... but Kentucky graduates many more people with degrees in CS every year, by about an order o…

yes. there's a similar problem in Alaska. We do have jobs but not nearly enough compared to the quantity of developers/graduates up here. It drives down wages and most developers end up leaving. It took me years to find my first development job while being stuck in call centers and tech support roles for 4 years.

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#26

Post by mettamage »

skywhopper wrote: post #20

I've been a firm believer for a long time that a lot of IT jobs, including software development, but also all sorts of support and operations tasks, should be treated more like a trade, with more formalized apprenticeship tracks and training. There's value in a traditional college degree, but there's still a lot of practical skills you can only learn on the job. But there's also a lot of potential talent in the field…

Edit: I know it is anecdata but I do want to point out that there are counterexamples under specific circumstances (read when creating CRUD apps).

I just got into the job market (I studied for 8 years, 4 degrees, now graduated for good, did some serious jobs on the side).

So far I disagree. I have had 5 freelance gigs: two in iOS (couple of years ago), one as a web dev coding instructor for a year (1 to 2 years ago), one in React frontend (1.5 years ago) and now 1 as a full-stack/dev-ops/semi 'data scientist' person.

Computer science allows me to rise above the difficulties that I'm facing now since all I'm building are glorified CRUD apps. I am looking for a company that takes software engineering more seriously than this. Because of building glorified CRUD apps and some knowledge of soft skills + some git knowledge is all there is, then a computer science degree is overkill.

For comparison: I made iphone apps during courses in my CS degree, I disabled viruses, fiddled around with concolic execution, created a computer graphics engine, created a compiler(ish) an operating system(ish), learned UML, some software architecture.

How is this not enough for CRUD apps?

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#27

Post by sidlls »

opportune wrote: post #21

I'm from KY. This article is great, but in focusing on these coding bootcamp graduates, it misses the much larger picture of just how much brain drain occurs for actual CS graduates (who, to be fair, are much less likely to be from Eastern KY). Right now they're taking millions in gov. money to train a small amount of people... but Kentucky graduates many more people with degrees in CS every year, by about an order o…

This is exactly how I feel about it. I came to the Bay Area for compensation closer to the value I provide. I stay because few other places offer the same combination of opportunity, compensation, and diversity. I'd take a 10% to 20% pay cut to live closer to family in a less expensive area, but where they live (a Midwestern city) every single one of those three things is strictly worse.

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#28

Post by wccrawford »

sanderjd wrote: post #22
dentemple wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any actual constructive criticism to go along with your sweeping generalization?

Rephrasing the parent's point in a way that I think is not inflammatory: " Anecdotally, the bootcamp graduates that didn't previously know how to code who I have worked with have provided net negative value - that is the productivity cost to the rest of the team has been higher than the value they have provided - and I think companies who hire them must not be aware of this possibility. " This has not been my experie…

It depends on the bootcamp. There's a local one at a decent university that turns out a ton of people with no real ability to program. It's not a very tough course, and so many people are able to get through it without actual aptitude by the end.

On the other hand, I recently interviewed someone from an out-of-state bootcamp that was very impressive. They had been self-teaching for a while beforehand, but from the interview it was clear that they learned a lot more at the bootcamp than they had learned on their own.

We have never considered hiring anyone from the local bootcamp. We are definitely considering the out-of-state person.

In short, your views of coding bootcamps are going to depend on the quality of the bootcamp near you.

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#29

Post by quanticle »

I think the most important line of the article is:

"On its first run in 2016, Interapt had 800 applicants, accepted 50 and graduated 35."

Any strategy that posits IT and programming "insourcing" as a solution for the troubles of Middle America is going to have to have a strategy for the 750/800 people who don't have the chops to become a software engineer.

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#30

Post by collias »

opportune wrote: post #21

I'm from KY. This article is great, but in focusing on these coding bootcamp graduates, it misses the much larger picture of just how much brain drain occurs for actual CS graduates (who, to be fair, are much less likely to be from Eastern KY). Right now they're taking millions in gov. money to train a small amount of people... but Kentucky graduates many more people with degrees in CS every year, by about an order o…

Former Kentuckian here. I moved out to California shortly after college, partly due to the exact reasons you described. There's simply no parallel job-wise to west coast tech jobs in Kentucky, including my hometown of Louisville.

I know several fellow southerners and midwesterners who are working at large tech firms out here. No matter how much we may love where we come from, there's simply no realistic avenue for us to go back.

Places like Kentucky already have huge tech talent pools, but the workers are currently in exile in the coasts. I'd imagine if these states focused more on bringing tech firms to their state, they'd see a lot of that tech talent return home.

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