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Let Teenagers Sleep In

nytimes.com

21–30 of 317 posts

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#21
post #4
post #2

Or better yet, bring back apprenticeship and give them something to do other than worthless high school. I almost didn't get my first programming job because I had to be paid under the table at 17 due to child labor laws. If you want to enrich teenagers' lives, offering them something other than a prison sentence where kids ruthlessly torment each other seems a decent way. It worked for most of history.

Each to their own. An apprenticeship wouldn't work for something like the sciences where you need to understand the theory before you can work under someone more senior. But you're right, for vocational training where you learn by doing having the option of an apprenticeship may be far more fruitful than staying in school. I believe Germany has this kind of system.

> An apprenticeship wouldn't work for something like the sciences where you need to understand the theory before you can work under someone more senior.

At the university, we actually had a very successful internship program for high school students (in particle physics). It turns out there is a lot you can learn by "learning by doing".

Also the actual day-to-day work of a master or PhD student is not too different from an apprentice in crafts - but very different from a school or univerity student. You learn by being embedded in a working group and performing actual work, instead of only sitting in class and learning from books.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#22
post #20
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile in Ameriburger, the kids tear each other to shreds. It sounds like the educational opportunities you got were what I spent years fantasizing about, wondering if there was anything better than going from mostly-dead teacher to mostly-dead teacher and forced to memorize pointless geographical facts in exchange for ... nothing at all, as far as I could tell.

I went to a school in America at a school where fights happened at least weekly. I still took advantage of what I was offered.

Yes, an environment where prisoners fight other prisoners sounds much preferable to learning a trade.

Anyway, the mods have deemed "thou shalt only post five comments every three hours," so... See you tomorrow.

Also the right teacher can make all the difference. Telling victims "Shut up and deal with it" isn't too productive, though it's the usual advice.

EDIT: Since I can't reply, I'll just post it here.

You'd be surprised. Economic activity is the only reason we don't resort to violence on a daily basis. Giving kids something to do other than posture might go a long way.

Woo, replying via edit is fun. I wonder how long I can troll the HN mods before all my comments drop to the bottom automatically again. After all, when no justification is given and your emails are ignored, why obey arbitrary rules or put in effort toward being a good community member?

EDIT2: Hmm, if I implied manual labor, I didn't mean to. A programming apprenticeship would have been amazing, and most trades are becoming knowledge-based anyway. Even a mechanic is less manual labor and more creative diagnostic.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#23
I wonder if it'd just be easier for high schools to convert over to a college model: students are free to pick courses corresponding to their preferred times, and to leave and enter campus on will. Of course, there will be incentives to consider -- why would a high schooler attend their classes if they're not paying directly out of pocket? In contrast, a school district would try to maximize the attendance rate as that's how funding works (at least in California).

In hindsight, there's always a tension between high schoolers and those who administrate them; it's never a partnership since teenagers are quick to abuse / misuse a privilege.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#24
post #22
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a school in America at a school where fights happened at least weekly. I still took advantage of what I was offered.

Yes, an environment where prisoners fight other prisoners sounds much preferable to learning a trade. Anyway, the mods have deemed "thou shalt only post five comments every three hours," so... See you tomorrow. Also the right teacher can make all the difference. Telling victims "Shut up and deal with it" isn't too productive, though it's the usual advice. EDIT: Since I can't reply, I'll just post it here. You'd be su…

I really don't think sending kids off to learn a trade is going to change America's problem of violence. That's a deep-rooted American cultural problem and a big reason why I left (having been a victim of crime several times).

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#25
post #18

One of the many fascinating facts I learnt from Matthew Walker's "Why We Sleep" is that the biorhythms of teenagers are shifted to later hours compared to those of adults in all human cultures of the globe, even in those rare societies hardly affected by technology. In evolution this was likely beneficial to make it easier for teenagers to socialize among themselves without adult disturbance, which was necessary to d…

Interesting idea :)

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#27
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teenagers natural sleeping cycle is markedly later than any other age bracket. When I was one, I wasn't allowed to play any videogames past 20:30, and I would often spend the evening reading books by a nightlight. Everyday I cycled for almost 2 hours (at ~20-25 kmh), so I got some regular exercise each day too. Nevertheless, I would still on occasion go to bed at 10:30 (had to get up at 6:30) and lie awake in bed til…

Would that still be the case in the middle of winter, when it gets dark at 5:00 PM?

Not the parent, but I grew up in the North of Scotland where it gets dark between 4-5pm for several months of each year, and as a teenager I could never sleep before 1-2am.

I was always forced to get up early, which of course resulted in me being extremely tired during the day, which negatively impacted upon my life (academically, relationships etc).

Seems like there has to be a better way.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#28

Wouldn't the average teenager just stay up even longer? It's not like they are hardcoded to wake up at a certain clock time. I think it would make much more sense to change the content of school during those years to reflect the interests of students better. Let them take a break, do something practical, do projects, etc. instead of trying to cram facts into their heads. A lot of stuff I headed to learn when I was 13…

Agreed, but not everyone will take time to learn things later on.

IMO, general level of education is important to fostering future curiosities.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#29
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teenagers natural sleeping cycle is markedly later than any other age bracket. When I was one, I wasn't allowed to play any videogames past 20:30, and I would often spend the evening reading books by a nightlight. Everyday I cycled for almost 2 hours (at ~20-25 kmh), so I got some regular exercise each day too. Nevertheless, I would still on occasion go to bed at 10:30 (had to get up at 6:30) and lie awake in bed til…

Would that still be the case in the middle of winter, when it gets dark at 5:00 PM?

According to studies made in UK that I'm too lazy to find; yes.

It's dark in the morning too, maybe going to school before dawn is the major problem, given that the schools are closed in the summer.

I've heard of doctors prescribing melatonine, which is absurd when the problem basically is cultural.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#30
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teenagers natural sleeping cycle is markedly later than any other age bracket. When I was one, I wasn't allowed to play any videogames past 20:30, and I would often spend the evening reading books by a nightlight. Everyday I cycled for almost 2 hours (at ~20-25 kmh), so I got some regular exercise each day too. Nevertheless, I would still on occasion go to bed at 10:30 (had to get up at 6:30) and lie awake in bed til…

Would that still be the case in the middle of winter, when it gets dark at 5:00 PM?

It is the case further north too, where winter daylight is 0-3 hours.
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