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Python: Avoid master/slave terms

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Re: Python: Avoid master/slave terms

#21

Post by elp »

dwaltrip wrote: post #14
mezzode wrote: post #10

I was surprised at just how comically angry people were over this. I can kind of understand their arguments against a trend of being too change-happy and over-correcting, but these things really should be considered case-by-case, not on whether it's part of a trend. It's an opportunity to use more descriptive terms, with being less insensitive as a bonus, and neither of these warrants the level of hate that's been co…

I don't have much of a dog in this fight, however one of the definitions of master is "main, prinicipal". Think of master bedroom, or the master copy of a key. Removing the term "slave" seems like the big win here.

I always liked the term minion but it would probably also offend someone.

Re: Python: Avoid master/slave terms

#22

Post by eesmith »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #13

> Every single time you people decide to change software for no other reason than social justice, all normal programmers decide to be more racist, sexist, transphobic and whatever else pisses you off - for no other reason than just to spite you. Although I can't completely agree with this, there is definitely some negative effect of such actions whenever they're undertaken. People who think "this is going too far" wi…

> Although I can't completely agree with this

While I read it as doubling down on bigotry. "Oh, you think I'm a racist? I'll show you what racism is really like." I find it hard to think that someone who isn't sexist would decide to become sexist out of spite over terminology.

> We've been using the master/slave terminology for years, but it has nothing to do with actual slaves

In technology, the term "master/slave" is used as a metaphor. The master is in command, and the slave is supposed to obey the commands of the master. In this metaphor, we are assumed to be aligned with the interests of the slave master.

This metaphor absolutely has something to do with actual slaves.

In real life we have concluded that the only moral goal for a slave master is to renounce power, and the goal for slaves is freedom.

If we use the modern view when we apply the metaphor then our moral goal should be to free database slaves. Which isn't really what we want.

That's why I agree with the idea of using a different metaphor.

Re: Python: Avoid master/slave terms

#23

Post by candiodari »

wahern wrote: post #17
xrd wrote: post #2

As a commenter noted, stones can hurt people too. But, that's not what people think of first when they hear the word stone. On the other hand, if you know the word slave, you know that the first meaning brings up some sad history. It's surprising that in the context of a programming language discussion, a programming language where exact syntax and meaning matters, that this change wouldn't be accepted more easily.

I've never known anyone, minority or not, who got teary-eyed at the word "slave". Uncomfortableness with the basic terminology of slavery is a reflection of how people relate to their privilege, especially in an era where minority rights and minority power are at the forefront of the contemporary narrative. That isn't to say that there doesn't exist terminology that people should be mindful of. But most privileged, w…

"Socially just" alternatives that were used in this example, for other processes/programs that have to do entirely what the master process tells them to:

1. (pliant) children (they started with childs, let's just not think too much what this means about the author's intelligence)

2. workers

That's just ... not offensive ? ahem

> But context matters,

Indeed. The context is that this is a socially acceptable way to deny, distort and lie about their own history. A way to avoid having to deal with it.

And of course, they have put zero thought into the alternatives. The business world is full of these zero-effort moronic "diversity" efforts that fail, suck and impose costs on everyone. Usually they're also making idiotically stupid mistakes and exposing themselves as totally stupid in the process.

Re: Python: Avoid master/slave terms

#24

Post by hjrnunes »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #13

> Every single time you people decide to change software for no other reason than social justice, all normal programmers decide to be more racist, sexist, transphobic and whatever else pisses you off - for no other reason than just to spite you. Although I can't completely agree with this, there is definitely some negative effect of such actions whenever they're undertaken. People who think "this is going too far" wi…

I think the underlying issue is not "that it goes too far".

I don't believe anyone would oppose "going this far" in terms of reducing or abolishing actual slavery.

I think what pisses people off is the utter frivolousness of it all. We all know that this is actually not doing anything about actual slavery.

Replacing the word slave in Python or software in general will do actually nothing for actual slaves in the world nor will it change the minds of actual slavers and actual slave owners.

So whilst people probably do not care that much about which specific word is used, they get pissed off by the frivolous sanctimony displayed by the proponents of the change.

Re: Python: Avoid master/slave terms

#25

Post by hjrnunes »

hjrnunes wrote: post #24
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #13

> Every single time you people decide to change software for no other reason than social justice, all normal programmers decide to be more racist, sexist, transphobic and whatever else pisses you off - for no other reason than just to spite you. Although I can't completely agree with this, there is definitely some negative effect of such actions whenever they're undertaken. People who think "this is going too far" wi…

I think the underlying issue is not "that it goes too far". I don't believe anyone would oppose "going this far" in terms of reducing or abolishing actual slavery. I think what pisses people off is the utter frivolousness of it all. We all know that this is actually not doing anything about actual slavery. Replacing the word slave in Python or software in general will do actually nothing for actual slaves in the worl…

Also, there is something else. Due to Taleb's principle of the intolerant minority[1], people that feel this is frivolous are faced with a choice: either submit to the frivolous intolerant zealots or die on a hill which no one really wants to die on; in this case, defending the word slave and be accused of defending actual slavery.

That can piss people off too.

[1]: https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...

edit: spelling

Re: Python: Avoid master/slave terms

#26

Post by warkid »

hjrnunes wrote: post #24
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #13

> Every single time you people decide to change software for no other reason than social justice, all normal programmers decide to be more racist, sexist, transphobic and whatever else pisses you off - for no other reason than just to spite you. Although I can't completely agree with this, there is definitely some negative effect of such actions whenever they're undertaken. People who think "this is going too far" wi…

I think the underlying issue is not "that it goes too far". I don't believe anyone would oppose "going this far" in terms of reducing or abolishing actual slavery. I think what pisses people off is the utter frivolousness of it all. We all know that this is actually not doing anything about actual slavery. Replacing the word slave in Python or software in general will do actually nothing for actual slaves in the worl…

What it does it makes people mention this word less often. This is helping forget history. To have it repeated sooner - in some other form, using different words.

Re: Python: Avoid master/slave terms

#27

Post by wink »

bobas2 wrote: post #19
stepvhen wrote: post #8

An interesting other side of the coin here: Emily Wilson, in her recent translation of The Odyssey made it a point to call the slaves in Odysseus' house slaves. In other translations, this idea was glossed over, the people called different things, avoiding the term. Wilson instead aimed to stay truer to the culture the work was written in, rather than appealing to contemporary ideals, or what have you. It makes sense…

Some words are created to do intentional harm to others. Others simply have two meanings, one innocuous in its usage another, derogatory to some group of people. The mariam webster dictionary recognizes the word slave as: a device (such as the printer of a computer) that is directly responsive to another. source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slave

I think what you're missing here is that it was first in the computer sense used in a time when all this discussion hadn't happen yet. So one the one hand, you're correct, it has this meaning. But there was a time where "negro" was a word with a neutral (to a certain kind of people) meaning - just look up any newspaper from a hundred years ago. So even if we're not having the discussion if the term is appropriate or not (not my point right now) - you're arguing with a tautology. As words can enter "standard" dictionaries, so can they leave.

Re: Python: Avoid master/slave terms

#28

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

eesmith wrote: post #22
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #13

> Every single time you people decide to change software for no other reason than social justice, all normal programmers decide to be more racist, sexist, transphobic and whatever else pisses you off - for no other reason than just to spite you. Although I can't completely agree with this, there is definitely some negative effect of such actions whenever they're undertaken. People who think "this is going too far" wi…

> Although I can't completely agree with this While I read it as doubling down on bigotry. "Oh, you think I'm a racist? I'll show you what racism is really like." I find it hard to think that someone who isn't sexist would decide to become sexist out of spite over terminology. > We've been using the master/slave terminology for years, but it has nothing to do with actual slaves In technology, the term "master/slave"…

> I find it hard to think that someone who isn't sexist would decide to become sexist out of spite over terminology.

It doesn't work exactly that way. It's more like some people start telling you to do things that seem absurd to you and imply you are doing something wrong whereas you had no bad intentions at all, and this causes a negative reaction.

> If we use the modern view when we apply the metaphor then our moral goal should be to free database slaves. Which isn't really what we want.

If we really follow this logic, we should ban all negative words and reconsider all metaphors. We should never run any daemons as they're associated with the devil and this could upset adherents of Theistic religions (your explanations of daemon etymology shouldn't matter then). We shouldn't use the name Apache because of the sad history of American natives. We shouldn't use terms such as "bug squashing" as they would imply animal cruelty. And so on and so forth.

Re: Python: Avoid master/slave terms

#29

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

hjrnunes wrote: post #25
hjrnunes wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the underlying issue is not "that it goes too far". I don't believe anyone would oppose "going this far" in terms of reducing or abolishing actual slavery. I think what pisses people off is the utter frivolousness of it all. We all know that this is actually not doing anything about actual slavery. Replacing the word slave in Python or software in general will do actually nothing for actual slaves in the worl…

Also, there is something else. Due to Taleb's principle of the intolerant minority[1], people that feel this is frivolous are faced with a choice: either submit to the frivolous intolerant zealots or die on a hill which no one really wants to die on; in this case, defending the word slave and be accused of defending actual slavery . That can piss people off too. [1]: https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-win…

Thanks for a very interesting read.

Re: Python: Avoid master/slave terms

#30

Post by swebs »

wink wrote: post #27
bobas2 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some words are created to do intentional harm to others. Others simply have two meanings, one innocuous in its usage another, derogatory to some group of people. The mariam webster dictionary recognizes the word slave as: a device (such as the printer of a computer) that is directly responsive to another. source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slave

I think what you're missing here is that it was first in the computer sense used in a time when all this discussion hadn't happen yet. So one the one hand, you're correct, it has this meaning. But there was a time where "negro" was a word with a neutral (to a certain kind of people) meaning - just look up any newspaper from a hundred years ago. So even if we're not having the discussion if the term is appropriate or…

And who knows what innocuous word today will be deemed "problematic" by the social justice warriors tomorrow.
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