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Tolstoy’s ‘Resurrection’ is strikingly similar to how we treat prisoners today

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Re: Tolstoy’s ‘Resurrection’ is strikingly similar to how we treat prisoners today

#21

Post by _8j50 »

lixtra wrote: post #12
testvox wrote: post #6

> But what do we do? […] We do not merely do nothing to get rid of the conditions in which such people are born – we actually encourage the institutions which produce them. We all know what these institutions are: the mills, the factories, the workshops, the inns, the pot-houses, the brothels. And far from wiping out establishments of this sort – considering them necessary, we encourage and regulate them. Would the w…

My understanding of the US prisons was that many people with mental issues end up there instead of proper mental health care [1]. I can imagine that people with mental issues are also more likely to end up in inns and brothels. These people remain problematic after closing those locations. Even more so with factories as you already pointed out. [1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/saving-normal/201303...

What mental issue specifically? Example, Childhood mental trauma caused psychological issues that made the convict a violent criminal,would that be better dealt with by a psychiatrist than prison? Probably,but the purpose of prison isn't correction. Correction is a desired end goal,but regardless of correction,prison is punishment for a person that broke the rules defined by society. The line is drawn somewhat clearly: if you are able to understand the ruled and apply reason to your decisions,you are held responsible for the consequence.

IMO, free psychotherapy in prisons and getting rid of private prisons is a good idea. There is too much of "this is how we've always done it".

I am also more concerned about the 90something% of cases that end up in a conviction due to plea bargaining. No due process. Tons of possibly innocent people admit guilt to avoid having their day in court. Risk getting a false conviction and serve 10yrs or plea bargain and get just a year,what poor person would take that risk if you can't afford a good lawyer?

Re: Tolstoy’s ‘Resurrection’ is strikingly similar to how we treat prisoners today

#22

Post by lsc »

jordigh wrote: post #2

> No Spoilers. This is a weird fixation we have in the modern world. Is anyone really thinking that by knowing the plot of a 120-year-old novel their experience of that novel could totally be ruined?

Pretty sure the 'No Spoilers' is a joke, sort of how people would joke about how they are ruining the titanic... "The ship sinks"

I mean, just like how we all know, in broad strokes, the story of the titanic, most of us have some idea of the plot to some works of classic literature that we haven't read.

Re: Tolstoy’s ‘Resurrection’ is strikingly similar to how we treat prisoners today

#24

Post by watwut »

fipple wrote: post #18
candiodari wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people think that we are in a totally unprecendented time in history. So you "don't get to" use history to criticize their great and unique ideas ... that ... mostly are not entirely unprecedented or original. Just like they did in the 60s ... and the 20s ... and during the French revolution ... and 100 times before and in between those ... Now don't get me wrong, there is something new everytime. Like pictures…

There is definitely something deeply weird and unprecedented about a world where the richest countries are having the fewest children.

Poor people used to have more children in the past too. That is really not unprecedented, that is how it often was.

Re: Tolstoy’s ‘Resurrection’ is strikingly similar to how we treat prisoners today

#25

Post by [deleted] »

ars wrote: post #13
gnulinux wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One should never read literature for it's plot. Learning the plot of a literature book should have no affect in its enjoyment. This is similar to enjoying a painting for it's plot: "oh so a man is looking up, it's night time, there are a lot of stars, a large tree covering left side of the canvas, the man has some sort vision problem and stars look really huge and yellow. Then there is moon, shining yellow. Below the…

> One should never read literature for it's plot. Says who? What if I want to read literature for the plot? What if the excitement of what's going to happen is what I care about, and the characters are just a side thing? What if some days I want to read for plot, other days I want world building, other days I want character development? > Learning the plot of a literature book should have no affect in its enjoyment.…

[deleted]

Re: Tolstoy’s ‘Resurrection’ is strikingly similar to how we treat prisoners today

#26

Post by [deleted] »

testvox wrote: post #6

> But what do we do? […] We do not merely do nothing to get rid of the conditions in which such people are born – we actually encourage the institutions which produce them. We all know what these institutions are: the mills, the factories, the workshops, the inns, the pot-houses, the brothels. And far from wiping out establishments of this sort – considering them necessary, we encourage and regulate them. Would the w…

[deleted]

Re: Tolstoy’s ‘Resurrection’ is strikingly similar to how we treat prisoners today

#27

Post by sytelus »

In US constitution, the 13th amendment leaves out only prisoners from salvery clause. It was bit shocking because US constitution essentially says that government can use prisoners jus like slaves!

I feel our current system of punishments and prisoners is very barberic. In my experience, people change dramatically in beliefs and who the are every 7-10 years. So having a prison term longer than that is essentially same as transferring sentence to quite different person. Also things like solitary confinements are beyond bewildering. I hope future prisons are essentially closed large spaces where prisoners make their own sustainable living. Prison shouldn’t be about enslaving a person but rather isolating him/her from society for safety of others all the while retraining them to be part of society again after no more than 7-10 years.

Re: Tolstoy’s ‘Resurrection’ is strikingly similar to how we treat prisoners today

#28

Post by zapita »

sytelus wrote: post #27

In US constitution, the 13th amendment leaves out only prisoners from salvery clause. It was bit shocking because US constitution essentially says that government can use prisoners jus like slaves! I feel our current system of punishments and prisoners is very barberic. In my experience, people change dramatically in beliefs and who the are every 7-10 years. So having a prison term longer than that is essentially sam…

> In US constitution, the 13th amendment leaves out only prisoners from slavery clause. It was bit shocking because US constitution essentially says that government can use prisoners just like slaves!

It’s definitely a shocking feature of the constitution. I’ve been wondering lately if it really can be (or has been) used to justify things like forced labor benefiting a for-profit corporation at below the legal minimum wage. The text says “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime...”. Couldn’t one argue that being in prison is the punishment - but working in a corporate sweatshop is additional servitude used not as punishment but as abuse of people already being punished?

Re: Tolstoy’s ‘Resurrection’ is strikingly similar to how we treat prisoners today

#29

Post by kd5bjo »

jordigh wrote: post #2

> No Spoilers. This is a weird fixation we have in the modern world. Is anyone really thinking that by knowing the plot of a 120-year-old novel their experience of that novel could totally be ruined?

Yes. I recently read “The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde,” and I’m sure that my enjoyment of it was significantly reduced by the central mystery’s resolution having inundated popular culture my entire life.

Re: Tolstoy’s ‘Resurrection’ is strikingly similar to how we treat prisoners today

#30

Post by daniel-cussen »

zapita wrote: post #28
sytelus wrote: post #27

In US constitution, the 13th amendment leaves out only prisoners from salvery clause. It was bit shocking because US constitution essentially says that government can use prisoners jus like slaves! I feel our current system of punishments and prisoners is very barberic. In my experience, people change dramatically in beliefs and who the are every 7-10 years. So having a prison term longer than that is essentially sam…

> In US constitution, the 13th amendment leaves out only prisoners from slavery clause. It was bit shocking because US constitution essentially says that government can use prisoners just like slaves! It’s definitely a shocking feature of the constitution. I’ve been wondering lately if it really can be (or has been) used to justify things like forced labor benefiting a for-profit corporation at below the legal minimu…

Well, it's antiquated. Back in the day the basics were expensive, so just keeping someone alive who wasn't working to pull his weight was basically unthinkable. If you fed people for nothing, back then, people would commit crimes just for the sake of being imprisoned.

But now that food is way cheaper, and so is clothing and shelter (not the real estate and finance component--just the construction), I think the rationale is out of date.

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