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'Right to be forgotten' could threaten global free speech, say NGOs

theguardian.com

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Re: 'Right to be forgotten' could threaten global free speech, say NGOs

#21

Post by kps »

qubax wrote: post #17
Tomte wrote: post #11

Good. Because it doesn't threaten Free Speech as understood by virtually all democracies in the Western world, it merely threatens the extremely expansive interpretation of Free Speech in America's First Amendment. Both notions are related, but clearly not the same.

> Good. Because it doesn't threaten Free Speech as understood by virtually all democracies in the Western world Not good. Most of the western world doesn't have free speech. > it merely threatens the extremely expansive interpretation of Free Speech in America's First Amendment. It isn't an "expansive" interpretation. It's the definition of free speech. Your "western democracies" have the same understanding of free s…

It's not “the definition of free speech”; the US First Amendment is merely a limited restriction on its governments, whereas ‘free speech’ more generally is a moral & epistemological principle (cf Mill).

Re: 'Right to be forgotten' could threaten global free speech, say NGOs

#22

Post by danShumway »

Tomte wrote: post #14
ng12 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always like to remind people that China has constitutionally protected "free speech". Saying you guarantee your citizens freedom of speech doesn't mean that freedom of speech is actually meaningful.

[flagged]

If the NGOs had come out and said, "we believe Chinese monitoring of citizens threatens civil rights", it wouldn't be a slam-dunk defense for China to jump up and say, "well, we have civil rights! They're just different from yours!" Of course they're different. Them being different is the entire point of the criticism.

We understand that civil rights aren't a binary category, and that different people and different nations guarantee them to different degrees and in different ways. The same is true of free speech.

What NGO is saying is that Europe's definition of free speech, to the extent that it does not block Right to be Forgotten, is not expansive enough.

It is meaningless to talk about whether or not "technically" Europe has free speech, in the same way that it is meaningless to talk about whether or not technically China has a right to privacy. When Americans say that European nations don't have real 1A rights, they're saying that Europe does not guarantee those rights strongly enough, based on an idea that these rights are intrinsic and are protected by the state, not granted or defined by the state.

Re: 'Right to be forgotten' could threaten global free speech, say NGOs

#23

Post by mikejb »

qubax wrote: post #17
Tomte wrote: post #11

Good. Because it doesn't threaten Free Speech as understood by virtually all democracies in the Western world, it merely threatens the extremely expansive interpretation of Free Speech in America's First Amendment. Both notions are related, but clearly not the same.

> Good. Because it doesn't threaten Free Speech as understood by virtually all democracies in the Western world Not good. Most of the western world doesn't have free speech. > it merely threatens the extremely expansive interpretation of Free Speech in America's First Amendment. It isn't an "expansive" interpretation. It's the definition of free speech. Your "western democracies" have the same understanding of free s…

So if I go to the Airport in Atlanta, and in the security line I express the opinion that the TSA is full of shit, and terrorists are just desperate's people's freedom fighters, I won't have to suffer repercussions?

The claimed interpretation of "absolute free speech" helps drive the narrative of "we're better than everyone else", but both quoted concepts are bullshit.

Re: 'Right to be forgotten' could threaten global free speech, say NGOs

#24

Post by curt15 »

>That judgment allowed European citizens to ask search engines to remove links to “inadequate, irrelevant or ... excessive” content

The critical terms "inadequate", "irrelevant" are dangerously subjective. What's irrelevant to one person may be of great interest to another.

Re: 'Right to be forgotten' could threaten global free speech, say NGOs

#26

Post by ApolloFortyNine »

mikejb wrote: post #23
qubax wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Good. Because it doesn't threaten Free Speech as understood by virtually all democracies in the Western world Not good. Most of the western world doesn't have free speech. > it merely threatens the extremely expansive interpretation of Free Speech in America's First Amendment. It isn't an "expansive" interpretation. It's the definition of free speech. Your "western democracies" have the same understanding of free s…

So if I go to the Airport in Atlanta, and in the security line I express the opinion that the TSA is full of shit, and terrorists are just desperate's people's freedom fighters, I won't have to suffer repercussions? The claimed interpretation of "absolute free speech" helps drive the narrative of "we're better than everyone else", but both quoted concepts are bullshit.

You would not be imprisoned.

You could at least try the "fire in a crowded theater argument." Though even that isn't truly limited today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_the...

Re: 'Right to be forgotten' could threaten global free speech, say NGOs

#27

Post by ApolloFortyNine »

pc86 wrote: post #9
NedIsakoff wrote: post #2

Canada has already had court ruling forcing Google to delete pages globally (not just the Canada domain). So why not Europe?

Serious question, how can Canada force Google to do something globally?

But if the data isn't stored in Canada, not viewable from Canada, does Canada really have jurisdiction?

Of course this is government, they can do whatever the hell they want. If they want to tell Google they have to delete it globally or they'll be blocked, there's not much anyone else can do about it. Though Google is probably close enough to universal to call their bluff. I know I'd be pissed and writing to my congressman.

Re: 'Right to be forgotten' could threaten global free speech, say NGOs

#28

Post by travelbuffoon »

Tomte wrote: post #11

Good. Because it doesn't threaten Free Speech as understood by virtually all democracies in the Western world, it merely threatens the extremely expansive interpretation of Free Speech in America's First Amendment. Both notions are related, but clearly not the same.

US free speech isn't even that expansive. Food libel laws are the most hilarious thing that a "free speech" country could do, after criticising others for banning nazi speech.

Re: 'Right to be forgotten' could threaten global free speech, say NGOs

#29

Post by throwaway8879 »

Tomte wrote: post #14
ng12 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always like to remind people that China has constitutionally protected "free speech". Saying you guarantee your citizens freedom of speech doesn't mean that freedom of speech is actually meaningful.

[flagged]

Germany, France and the Netherlands have free speech you say?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial#...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial#...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial#...

Re: 'Right to be forgotten' could threaten global free speech, say NGOs

#30

Post by guelo »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #8
curt15 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fight over that isn't over yet. https://www.thestar.com/business/2017/11/03/canadas-top-cour...

This is still an insane ruling by the U.S. that has no reasonable force of law. The top court of Canada, the highest judiciary entity, has said that the results must be delisted. Nobody can overrule the Canadian court's ruling on this, especially not an American court. In order to be in compliance with Canadian law, the results must be delisted, and as a company operating in Canada, Google must comply with Canadian l…

Imagine Europe's high court says Google must not do what the Canadian court told them to do. Now what?
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