Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love • Hacker News Board

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#21

Post by toyg » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 9:35 PM UTC

sytelus wrote: post #5

I grew up with stories of people like Maco Polo and love of travel but my recent trips to Europe has almost repulsed and disillusioned me. Tiny European countries are being swamped by huge swath of tourists, everyone with Rick Steve’s guidebook, they all go look at exact same thing, take exact same pictures and even eat at exact same recommended restaurants. There is a lot to see and little to reflect when you are am…

> everyone with Rick Steve’s guidebook, they all go look at exact same thing [...] I wonder if there are any other guidebooks

Is this sarcasm? The existence of guidebooks, in itself, ensures that multiple people will do what the guide says. A "better" guidebook will just ruin those "better" experiences too.

In there you have the contradiction of tourism, which really extends to a lot of our modern lifestyle: everybody wants to be first and original, but also to be led safely. The two concepts are fundamentally exclusive; trying to chase them is a fool's errand. Just be yourself and experience what you want to experience, damn the guides. As a famous comedian says closing his show, "drive fast and take chances".

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#22

Post by trentmb » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 9:36 PM UTC

trentmb wrote: post #9

ahelwer wrote: post #6

Always worth posting Wallace's quote on the subject: "To be a mass tourist, for me, is to become a pure late-date American: alien, ignorant, greedy for something you cannot ever have, disappointed in a way you can never admit. It is to spoil, by way of sheer ontology, the very unspoiledness you are there to experience. It is to impose yourself on places that in all noneconomic ways would be better, realer, without yo…

> It's not so much gatekeeping as ensuring people who want to experience that beauty have to put in the work - read terribly-designed websites, meet actual people and gain their trust, or even take a backcountry travel class which hopefully instills a healthy respect for the environment you're enjoying. Or we could build more walls.

Not sure why I got downvoted- why shouldn't these people be denied access to a certain geographical area and all its splendors before undergoing some, say, "naturalization" process?

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#23

Post by eaenki » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 9:37 PM UTC

blondie9x wrote: post #18

Traveling is overrated. Often times in modern life it feels as thought traveling is a competition rather than for leisure and pleasure. People are often competing to take pictures and say they have been to as many places as possible. Props to travel companies for propagating the travel craze and selling people on the allure of taking pictures and eating food in another spot on Earth. Count the number of people's prof…

I'll play Sherlock.

I think that's just a controversial view you created and therefore particularly like. It's likely also one you created to explain some preferences of yours (e.g local attachment). Likely instilled from parents.

I think my view on your comment is: true as long as you're a cyborg. Personally, I travel where(and when) no one goes. Unique, remote places. It's scientifically proven that when you experience something completely new your brain it's over clocking . That's what usually drives a good % of people. The rest simply follows. Not really clever marketing.

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#24

Post by sparkling » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 9:38 PM UTC

Recently, in the german edition of the Spiegel, there was a similar column[1] saying there was "something really going wrong" when a flight from Berlin to Cologne costs 15€ while the train ticket for the same destinations costs 120€. The same article said that the flights were "absurdly cheap" and that the budget airlines are "displaying the type of capitalism that is disconnected from reality".

Im not joking. The question they asked themselves was not why the Deutsche Bahn [2], receiving billions ins subsidies every year, is unable to compete agains budget airlines, but why the government doesn't forbid such low costs flights. The elitism of the authors really scares me. It almost seems as if they want a minimal ticket fee, making flying a luxury once again.

Ryanair and Easyjet are well run companies that are enabling millions of poor people to see the world, visit family members they haven't seen for decades, leave their countries for better opportunities abroad.

[1] http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/billig-fluege-der-...

[2] The major german railway company, privatized in 1994, but still fully owned by the government

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#25

Post by wepple » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 9:38 PM UTC

blondie9x wrote: post #18

Traveling is overrated. Often times in modern life it feels as thought traveling is a competition rather than for leisure and pleasure. People are often competing to take pictures and say they have been to as many places as possible. Props to travel companies for propagating the travel craze and selling people on the allure of taking pictures and eating food in another spot on Earth. Count the number of people's prof…

I disagree that it’s due to boredom, or that it is overrated.

Learning about other cultures and other people’s way of life is incredibly important in an increasingly divided world. I strongly believe that if the average American spent time living with an Islamic family in the Middle East for a week, we might break down a lot of barriers between all the folks that share this rock we live on.

It’s another question as to whether that’s the type of travel people want to do, or whether it’s all collecting Instagram photos because #wanderlust is trendy and accessible right now

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#26

Post by NTDF9 » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 9:39 PM UTC

blondie9x wrote: post #18

Traveling is overrated. Often times in modern life it feels as thought traveling is a competition rather than for leisure and pleasure. People are often competing to take pictures and say they have been to as many places as possible. Props to travel companies for propagating the travel craze and selling people on the allure of taking pictures and eating food in another spot on Earth. Count the number of people's prof…

>> Traveling is so overrated it's insane.

No it is not. It is only overrated for folks who are trying to "gain" something from it.

>> Okay let's be honest for a second what does most traveling boil down to?

The whole point of traveling is to be in an environment foreign to you. Interacting with locals, eating local food, trying local shit. This was all more fun before globalization since you couldn't fly into Phillipines and walk into a McDonalds. But now, you can and that reduces the charm.

You might find traveling overrated because it is monetarily and passport-wise easy for you.

You might find it overrated because even after going to a far away land, you're using uber to go from point A to point B instead of what locals use there.

You might find it overrated if you are trying to use traveling to make you feel special. You want to be the only instagrammer who has gone to Bali? Too bad, so many others have.

The real fun of traveling is really meeting people from around the world in a foreign land, doing local activities, seeing amazing sights (natural and man made) learning their way of life and opening mindsets. It's crazy how wonderful this little blue rock in space is.

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#27

Post by Spooky23 » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 9:41 PM UTC

infinity0 wrote: post #3

Funny that they blame Ryanair and Easyjet, who only serve Europe, in the first sentence, then plaster a big photograph of a field full of Chinese tourists that most likely did not use Ryanair or Easyjet to get there.

That’s just a way to avoid seeming racist. Nobody will raise an eyebrow at comments about random punters from the UK getting blitzed.

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#28

Post by chrispeel » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 9:42 PM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #17

ahelwer wrote: post #6

Always worth posting Wallace's quote on the subject: "To be a mass tourist, for me, is to become a pure late-date American: alien, ignorant, greedy for something you cannot ever have, disappointed in a way you can never admit. It is to spoil, by way of sheer ontology, the very unspoiledness you are there to experience. It is to impose yourself on places that in all noneconomic ways would be better, realer, without yo…

"alien, ignorant, greedy for something you cannot ever have" I find this hugely classist. (Edit: and I'm generally not someone to use that terminology) Most (even American) travellers are just trying to see some sights, have a normal and are not particularly rude or problematic. The issue is now that 'everyone' can afford to travel ... it's causing problems. This is a problem of prosperity.

  "alien, ignorant, greedy for something you cannot ever have"
   I find this hugely classist.

I thought the quote was going more for a "leave-no-trace" approach to interacting w the world. Clean up your physical and digital trash so that it doesn't destroy the experience for others.

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#29

Post by cryptozeus » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 9:42 PM UTC

blondie9x wrote: post #18

Traveling is overrated. Often times in modern life it feels as thought traveling is a competition rather than for leisure and pleasure. People are often competing to take pictures and say they have been to as many places as possible. Props to travel companies for propagating the travel craze and selling people on the allure of taking pictures and eating food in another spot on Earth. Count the number of people's prof…

I think you should take a broader view here. Traveling is not to just go from point to point, traveling is wonderful, it open up to new opportunities and exposes to new ideas, culture and places that you would never know existed. Traveling teaches you so much about life and breaks singular view on world.

Re: Paradise Lost: How Tourists Are Destroying the Places They Love

#30

Post by CamperBob2 » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 9:43 PM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #17

ahelwer wrote: post #6

Always worth posting Wallace's quote on the subject: "To be a mass tourist, for me, is to become a pure late-date American: alien, ignorant, greedy for something you cannot ever have, disappointed in a way you can never admit. It is to spoil, by way of sheer ontology, the very unspoiledness you are there to experience. It is to impose yourself on places that in all noneconomic ways would be better, realer, without yo…

"alien, ignorant, greedy for something you cannot ever have" I find this hugely classist. (Edit: and I'm generally not someone to use that terminology) Most (even American) travellers are just trying to see some sights, have a normal and are not particularly rude or problematic. The issue is now that 'everyone' can afford to travel ... it's causing problems. This is a problem of prosperity.

It's the zoo problem all over again.

Animal-rights advocates frequently argue, not without some justification, that it's unethical and exploitative to capture wild animals and lock them up in cages so that we can gawk at them. So let's follow their advice in a hypothetical sense and get rid of zoos, circuses, even pet stores. Fast-forward a generation or two and let's imagine how that might turn out. The people from which those very organizations draw their membership will have never seen an elephant or a tiger -- or, for the city-dwellers among them, even a deer or a rabbit -- in real life. These are also the same people who vote for Congressional representatives to pass or repeal conservation laws.

In this hypothetical future, volunteers from the animal-rights organization will go door-to-door canvassing for votes or petition signatures, just as they do today... except no one will have the faintest idea what they're talking about. The activists will find that they might as well be asking their contributors to save the T-Rexes in Jurassic Park. What's the difference? They're all just pixels on a screen.

Tourism works the same way, IMO. It may have harmful aspects, but the effects of completely eliminating it will be worse.

And decrying "mass tourism," as Wallace puts it, is nothing but code for "Only a few wealthy people should get to experience this."