What happens when we work non-stop • Hacker News Board

Re: What happens when we work non-stop

#21

Post by wool_gather » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 2:08 PM UTC

cheschire wrote: post #5

How many software developers do you know who say they don't "work" outside of the office, but then write code at home for personal projects? What is the definition of "work" then? What would happen if you start to let go of the concept of "work" as the bad thing, and expand the argument? I suggest we instead say using the same parts of your body and mind to the exclusion of the other parts is what is bad for you. Kno…

At least for me a large part of my choosing my career (software development) is because I love writing code. There's a huge mental difference for me between spending time writing code for myself, to learn or explore, and being at the keyboard for my employer. The complete self-direction in the project changes the character of the time. It really is a different headspace, and I don't think it's quite fair to say that it's still "working", in the sense of it being a job.

In my experience, the problem with overworking is not the activity itself. It's the mental state of doing a thing because of some sense of obligation, duty, or politicking/competition (or maybe threat, if you're doing it because you're anxious about job security).

Now that said, I totally agree that physically doing the same activity for endless hours every day is not going to be healthy -- including mental health. I think you're totally right to suggest balancing out job tasks with contrasted activities. It is good for your body, and keeps you from getting stuck in ruts mentally. As appealing as it sounds sometimes, I'm not just a brain in a jar. Using the muscles and talking to other humans is also important for being fully human.

Re: What happens when we work non-stop

#22

Post by k_wantified » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 3:13 PM UTC

akullpp wrote: post #6

sebazzz wrote: post #2

I see this happening with direct collegues of mine. Working in the weekend, working in the evening. Even parttimers running constant overtime, when it doesn't appear to be necessary. Having a few work-related phone calls even on holiday. I believe this creates a constant "attachment" to work, and does not allow you to detach. Especially on holidays you should be able to detach and be able to forget work for a few wee…

Oh boy, exactly the same happens at my company. Everyone is available and communicating even when on paternity/maternity leave or on vacation somewhere on an island. Many people see their value directly tied to their career and one of the major ways to make you (feel) important is to be present. It also helps your career since many old companies value presence over other criteria. I'm three weeks ill now and for the…

What about if your relationships and mental health are terrible, so you work to ease the pain of that?

Re: What happens when we work non-stop

#23

Post by jdavis703 » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 3:26 PM UTC

I think "work" is a state of mind. If you love what you do, then working isn't really working, at least not in the classic "I hate the boss" sense. Now I realize that not everyone gets to work a job they love, but I'm quite frank with my coworkers and supervisors that if I encounter a prolonged period where work isn't enjoyable anymore, I will leave.

Re: What happens when we work non-stop

#24

Post by maxxxxx » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 3:29 PM UTC

crdoconnor wrote: post #13

sebazzz wrote: post #2

I see this happening with direct collegues of mine. Working in the weekend, working in the evening. Even parttimers running constant overtime, when it doesn't appear to be necessary. Having a few work-related phone calls even on holiday. I believe this creates a constant "attachment" to work, and does not allow you to detach. Especially on holidays you should be able to detach and be able to forget work for a few wee…

I've noticed it sometimes ramps up even when management isn't really encouraging it and nobody actually wants to do it. It's the most straightforward means of signaling relative dedication to the company - Joe the most insecure programmer can attempt to compensate for his skill insecurity by showing more dedication by working longer hours. That then means that Jane feels implicit, unspoken pressure to work longer bec…

I am in that situation right now. Management has decided that a product needs to be rolled out ASAP so some people are working late and weekends. I play an important part in the project but I usually get my stuff done during normal working hours. However, there is a lot of subtle pressure to stay around in case the people working need something. If you are a "team player" you stay.

I don't want to let down others (with whom I have a good relationship) but I also don't want to kill my personal life because management has set an artificial deadline so I have a made a conscious decision to limit overtime only to the times when I actually have something to do.

The overtime cult is an insidious force that's hard to resist. Once a few people start doing it there is a lot of peer pressure on others to do it too. I guess it's a dynamic management can exploit to get more work out of workers by playing them against each other.

Re: What happens when we work non-stop

#25

Post by balladeer » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 3:30 PM UTC

sebazzz wrote: post #2

I see this happening with direct collegues of mine. Working in the weekend, working in the evening. Even parttimers running constant overtime, when it doesn't appear to be necessary. Having a few work-related phone calls even on holiday. I believe this creates a constant "attachment" to work, and does not allow you to detach. Especially on holidays you should be able to detach and be able to forget work for a few wee…

On the other hand I have followed this way of work-life balance so earnestly that I don't do (almost) anything work related (or my profession) after work hours at all; except when I am looking for jobs and preparing for interviews (even then it's minimal).

I'd read (fiction), play sports, trek, travel, watch films, just saunter around, listen to music, or just have hours of sleep but I don't work after office hours (or even try to up-skill myself by coding in the field I work on, or some other interesting field). So far I have not really faced any problem because of this, but I am really concerned that it might start to show after I gain more years under my belt; or it might already be showing, it's just that it hasn't hit me yet.

Re: What happens when we work non-stop

#26

Post by zepto » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 3:49 PM UTC

lixtra wrote: post #3

Working nonstop is a natural state. Think of parents. Of course you cannot code for 14h every day. You have to vary your work. Personally I can concentrate for only 5h if I want to maintain that for several days in a row. I felt very burnt out after 8h of coding. It took me a while to understand that it’s okay to just concentrate for 5h and use the rest for communication and socializing. I also do solve personal prob…

Working non-stop is not a natural state. Are parents ‘working’ or are they playing with their children? Perhaps you are so used to a world where parents have no time to play with their children because they need to get back to work.

Also it seems like you define socializing as ‘work’. If so, then why not define sleeping as work or even death as work, that way your statement that working non-stop makes sense.

Re: What happens when we work non-stop

#27

Post by mancerayder » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 4:50 PM UTC

There are a number of factors such as psychological ones that play a role here, but one major one is distributed teams. I'll go into below what my solution is to the whole off-hours problem is.

As a DevOps guy, you have to bail people out of situations or assist with a scary release (because things are rarely sufficiently automated, it takes years to convince management and fix tech debt, especially in a startup). For that and other reasons, there's an expectation that 'it's just part of the job' to 'be available' in case someone in the globe needs you.

After suffering such things for well over a decade, I've chosen the stubborn consulting route. My health care sucks and it's hard to find roles, but once I do I get paid hourly and well, and let me tell you something about company behavior when you're on the clock: suddenly they volunteer OTHER people for off-hours work, suddenly they're reluctant to let you work more than 40 hours.

That realization should clue you workaholics (employee workaholics, not founder workaholics) in on what's really at stake here, and the real reason you're checking Slack nervously at 3 pm Saturday before your colleagues do: it's free overtime for your company.

And quite frankly I think many of you are doing your colleagues a disservice by setting availability standards too high. There's no reason to race to the bottom.

Re: What happens when we work non-stop

#28

Post by gordaco » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 4:56 PM UTC

k_wantified wrote: post #22

akullpp wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh boy, exactly the same happens at my company. Everyone is available and communicating even when on paternity/maternity leave or on vacation somewhere on an island. Many people see their value directly tied to their career and one of the major ways to make you (feel) important is to be present. It also helps your career since many old companies value presence over other criteria. I'm three weeks ill now and for the…

What about if your relationships and mental health are terrible, so you work to ease the pain of that?

That's a bit like... your relationships and mental health are terrible, so you take drugs (especially alcohol) to ease the pain of that. It might get you some temporary relief, but in the long run the consequences might be far worse than the original problem(s) you were running away from.

Re: What happens when we work non-stop

#29

Post by zasz » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 5:13 PM UTC

mancerayder wrote: post #27

There are a number of factors such as psychological ones that play a role here, but one major one is distributed teams. I'll go into below what my solution is to the whole off-hours problem is. As a DevOps guy, you have to bail people out of situations or assist with a scary release (because things are rarely sufficiently automated, it takes years to convince management and fix tech debt, especially in a startup). Fo…

Yup, that's how I feel about ever being on-call again. I used to be part of a four-man rotation for a set of services that regularly went down 2-3x times during sleeping hours. This was really rough as a lifelong insomniac. I could never fall back asleep again after being woken up, and was basically a zombie. (And before anyone asks, I've done a sleep study, melatonin, seen a therapist, tried SSRIs, light therapy, intense exercise (biking across America did not help with my insomnia--yeah, biking 8 hours a day, I still couldn't manage to stay asleep longer than six hours any night, now if you don't believe me I'll fucking fight you), Ambien (it takes four Ambien to knock me out), Lunesta (worthless), Remeron (worthless), hot milk (worthless), lavender pillows (worthless).)

Never again.

Re: What happens when we work non-stop

#30

Post by reitanqild » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 5:35 PM UTC

ezequiel-garzon wrote: post #17

aestetix wrote: post #16

> As put by a 2006 academic paper from Ian Towers, a researcher from SRH Hochschule in Berlin, mobile technology “increases expectations: managers and colleagues alike expect staff to be almost always available to do work”. A little surprised to see this line. In Germany, there is a law (cannot recall the name), that effectively states that you cannot be fired if you don't reply to a work email or phone call between…

Probably the employer won’t cite that as a reason...

I don't know for sure but I guess standards for firing people are generally high in Germany.