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Dear Academia, I loved you, but I’m leaving you (2014)

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Re: Dear Academia, I loved you, but I’m leaving you (2014)

#22
This is a recurring topic on HN.

My (European) experience is that academia provides a great work environment. If you have tenure, you're free to work on whatever you want, you have very low pressure (beside the pressure you decide to inflict on yourself), you're basically paid to learn new things and teach them to others. You can easily visit other institutes abroad. You get to meet interesting people. Age discrimination isn't an issue. The salary isn't on par with what you could make working for a company but it's enough. If you're ambitious and talented you can easily earn money on the side (consulting, starting your own company, taking a leave) and you can have the best of both worlds.

Re: Dear Academia, I loved you, but I’m leaving you (2014)

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, that's hard to read. I thought people who went into Literature had it bad. It sometimes seems like the education sector is an experiment in how to create a society with almost unlimited power to do things, and almost total ignorance about what's a good idea.

Academia lives in a world where people are willing to spend hundreds of thousands to make themselves more knowledgeable in subjects which might have no economic value in the world. Just look at how much of our undergrad education consists "general education" type courses. While these courses are interesting, most of them are pretty useless. I took Chinese history, Asian american film, music history, art history and s…

I think the problem is, that leads to a society that's a bit like a sports car being driven by a nine-year-old. STEM and vocational stuff is great for getting to places fast. It's awful for making a society that can talk critically about where it's going.

I say talk, and not 'think', because I don't think STEM people are bad at thinking about problems critically. I just think a lot of humanities is about developing a common set of reference points, a common vocabulary, so you can work on social problems together.

If you don't have that, you can't really stop malicious actors from drowning out their opposition, who are isolated by the fact they don't share a common conceptual toolset. And if that happens for long enough, you end up with a society that's basically a bunch of amazingly powerful machines operated by Fox News.

Re: Dear Academia, I loved you, but I’m leaving you (2014)

#24
post #11

The cause of the problems in academia is hinted at near the end: > the truth is I understand why they have to do things that way, if they don't get published, they don't get money to continue work that should theoretically be beneficial down the road! Scientists optimizing for what is likely to be published (read: what is likely to earn money), sacrificing elsewhere. Maybe if we payed them enough so that they don't h…

> Scientists optimizing for what is likely to be published (read: what is likely to earn money), sacrificing elsewhere. Maybe if we payed them enough so that they don't have to do this to survive, then we wouldn't have this issue. How do you do this in a society with scarce resources? With scarcity, you need to have a measure of success, otherwise everyone could just say they were a scientist and get a six figure sal…

> With scarcity, you need to have a measure of success, otherwise everyone could just say they were a scientist and get a six figure salary to do nothing. Any metric you choose will be gamed.

As a current grad studrnt, I'm calling BS. We (meaning academics, even the ones gaming the system) _know_ what strong, reproducible, well-designed research projects look like. It doesn't take a genius to develop an experiment, run it, document what happened, and publish _all_ of the results. Hell, you learned the basics in middle school -- pick an independent variable, tweak it, then see what happens to the dependent variables.

Now it's obviously not that simple -- isolating just one independent variable is practically impossible much of the time -- but the concept of documenting EVERYTHING that you tried should be obvious. There's absolutely zero impetus to share all of that information, however, especially when you only have 12 pages in a conference paper to write up everything. So instead you go fishing, and you run a boatload of tests, and you see which ones "solve" the problem, and you write up just those tests, ignoring all the failures and the false starts.

It pisses me off, to be honest, and it's just one of the many reasons I'm trying to get out of here as soon as I can.

Re: Dear Academia, I loved you, but I’m leaving you (2014)

#25

This is a recurring topic on HN. My (European) experience is that academia provides a great work environment. If you have tenure, you're free to work on whatever you want, you have very low pressure (beside the pressure you decide to inflict on yourself), you're basically paid to learn new things and teach them to others. You can easily visit other institutes abroad. You get to meet interesting people. Age discrimina…

The problem is getting a tenure position - with all these nepotism, protectionism, elitism of academic world.

Re: Dear Academia, I loved you, but I’m leaving you (2014)

#26

This is a recurring topic on HN. My (European) experience is that academia provides a great work environment. If you have tenure, you're free to work on whatever you want, you have very low pressure (beside the pressure you decide to inflict on yourself), you're basically paid to learn new things and teach them to others. You can easily visit other institutes abroad. You get to meet interesting people. Age discrimina…

Yes, I believe we have it easier in Europe. I realize my other post sounds rantish but the reason I'm still in academia, beyond the very valid points you've mentioned, is that I don't believe the nepotism and dishonesty issues are specific to academia.

>You get to meet interesting people.

I want to stress that part because I don't feel it does the environment justice. You get to meet fantastic and very intelligent people from all countries in the world. During gathering events, meetings, parties, etc. I've been to, it's not rare to see eight different nationalities out of eight people around a dining table. You talk about science at first but very quickly discussions derail into comparisons between such and such country's perspective, differences in culture, jokes about the language, and so on. And it happens every time. Not all environments provide this.

Of course, you may argue that this diversity of culture and insights is counterbalanced by the community's homogeneity in many other aspects (e.g. the overwhelming majority of scientists are very liberal, even by European standards), and it's pretty obvious that your view of, say, Iranian or Russian people is going to be skewed if the only ones you've talked to are very educated and liberal 20- or 30-somethings working as expats. Scientists are known for their insularity, and while they're a demographic that's among the most susceptible to date outside their country, they're also very prone to date inside the community. The 'ivory tower' stereotype is not completely wrong.

Re: Dear Academia, I loved you, but I’m leaving you (2014)

#27

Can anyone speak to what it's like doing a post doc in CS?

you should be more specific-what part of CS?

all the CS postdocs I know see a) pretty happy b) have a really easy back up of a high paying industry gig that they can pivot to because of currently insanely inflated demand for academics to make deep learning on the blockchain on the cloud on embedded devices doing quantum backprop

-these are ML/theory postdocs

Re: Dear Academia, I loved you, but I’m leaving you (2014)

#28
post #25

This is a recurring topic on HN. My (European) experience is that academia provides a great work environment. If you have tenure, you're free to work on whatever you want, you have very low pressure (beside the pressure you decide to inflict on yourself), you're basically paid to learn new things and teach them to others. You can easily visit other institutes abroad. You get to meet interesting people. Age discrimina…

The problem is getting a tenure position - with all these nepotism, protectionism, elitism of academic world.

meh as a baby academic I am not convinced that the nepotism protectionism elitism of academia are markedly higher than the 'real world'

Re: Dear Academia, I loved you, but I’m leaving you (2014)

#29

Tracking what actually happens in scientific studies and how many don't get published would be a good idea. And a blockchain would be a way to do it. Knowing the whole truth could make science better.

> And a blockchain would be a way to do it

I can't even.

Re: Dear Academia, I loved you, but I’m leaving you (2014)

#30
post #3

Regarding "literally everyone does it" (fishing for results, removing negative ones, and so on): it's very true, and much more prevalent than what people think. Even at top-level universities with big shots. Especially at top-level universities with big shots. I know someone, upon entering a lab to do electronic microscopy, who found out that the image data her lab had written multiple papers on very high-impact jour…

Science is not when you publish something. Science is when at least two independent labs can reproduce your published result.

Why two and not three or one?
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