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The Superinvestors of Graham-and-Doddsville (1984)

www8.gsb.columbia.edu

21–30 of 35 posts

Re: The Superinvestors of Graham-and-Doddsville (1984)

#21
post #4

I belong to a fair number of value investing forums and made money off of the strategy for a while. Here's why I think this no longer works in the traditional sense and what works now: The rise of quants, ETFs, and instant information has largely arbitraged away value mispricings. So if it looks like a bargain, it's probably a value trap. So where can you find value? Where the above things are not present. Quants wor…

Which forums are you referring to?

Re: The Superinvestors of Graham-and-Doddsville (1984)

#22
I went to columbia business school, where buffet is revered and the value investing program is the most exclusive and sought after program in the curriculum (and arguably one of the few that actually teaches useful skills). they publish a letter called graham and doddsville with articles and stock pitches from modern day value investors.

i didnt do value investing but took some classes and attended some talks, so i am not an expert, but from what i saw, things have changed a lot. it is harder to be a value investor today just because everything is so expensive. just like 50 years ago opportunities to buy businesses for less than book value became harder and harder to find, in today's market it is much harder to find value investments as defined by traditional valuation metrics like EV / EBITDA, ROIC, FCF / earnings yield, etc

Value oriented funds, and long / short equity funds in general, have been having a tough time. Too many funds popped up in the last 20 years and they are all competing for a few good investments. People are changing the definition of "value", though i am not sure if anyone has found a good one. Many people pitched FB and Google as value stocks, even though by traditional metrics they could not qualify as value investments

Bill Ackman, a prominent investor and sponsor of an investing contest that is a major part of the value investing curriculum, said if he was starting today he wouldnt be an investor, but would start a tech company. He wasn't the only HF manager who expressed that sentiment

Re: The Superinvestors of Graham-and-Doddsville (1984)

#23
post #4

I belong to a fair number of value investing forums and made money off of the strategy for a while. Here's why I think this no longer works in the traditional sense and what works now: The rise of quants, ETFs, and instant information has largely arbitraged away value mispricings. So if it looks like a bargain, it's probably a value trap. So where can you find value? Where the above things are not present. Quants wor…

I'd still argue than metrics like EV/FCF give some indication of valuation / risk. Balance sheets become less meaningful going forward. Google's greatness is not to be found in its physical assets.

Balance sheet metrics can still be important. Return on invested capital (ROIC) is a very popular "value" metric showing what a business can earn by investing in its business. The denominator is calculated from the balance sheet

Basically, if you are a good business with a strong moat, you will be able to invest in your business at a compounding rate. ROIC is a way to measure this

Re: The Superinvestors of Graham-and-Doddsville (1984)

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd still argue than metrics like EV/FCF give some indication of valuation / risk. Balance sheets become less meaningful going forward. Google's greatness is not to be found in its physical assets.

Yes, I agree! Metrics are extremely important in screening out for value stocks. What I'm saying simply is that there is no singular magical metric that can wipe out hours and hours of research. To simply list all stocks by EV/FCF ordered by cheapness will not automatically create a winning portfolio.

There's a sort of common strategy that uses EV / FCF (or something like that) as a metric for cheapness and ROIC as a metric for "good" businesses (to avoid value traps). I believe it has done pretty well

Re: The Superinvestors of Graham-and-Doddsville (1984)

#25

I went to columbia business school, where buffet is revered and the value investing program is the most exclusive and sought after program in the curriculum (and arguably one of the few that actually teaches useful skills). they publish a letter called graham and doddsville with articles and stock pitches from modern day value investors. i didnt do value investing but took some classes and attended some talks, so i a…

You know, I think the thing that is interesting is Buffett never really was as resolute in Dodd's philosophy as many of the famous long/short investors who have struggled recently seem to be. Buffet evolved as an investor:

1. He recognized the multiplicative power of combining the insurance float alongside his stellar investment ability.

2. He recognized the power of moat and brand value vs. Graham and Doddsville.

3. He saw the value in return on capital over purely P/E for a growing business from Sees Candy.

As an aside, one reason long/shorts have had a tough time is that low rates make it harder to generate an automatic 6% return on your short book.

But, I believe many value investors have failed to understand how technology and network-based platforms work. P/S works better for AMZN than P/E when the CEO is trying to minimize E. NFLX could have lower its P/E to 20 if it charged $15/month last December. FB just had to monetize its platform by something like a couple dollars per user right after it IPO'd. I think many traditional value investors did not understand or adapt their thinking regarding stickiness, revenue per user expansion, fixed costs for platform-based businesses, and redefining what tangible and intangible asset value is.

There's an almost stubbornness to many of these investors versus a curiosity to listen to an alternative viewpoint.

Re: The Superinvestors of Graham-and-Doddsville (1984)

#26
post #4

I belong to a fair number of value investing forums and made money off of the strategy for a while. Here's why I think this no longer works in the traditional sense and what works now: The rise of quants, ETFs, and instant information has largely arbitraged away value mispricings. So if it looks like a bargain, it's probably a value trap. So where can you find value? Where the above things are not present. Quants wor…

The reason value works isn't just behavioral mispricing. Numerous academic studies have shown there is an inherent risk component driving the persistently larger returns found in "value" stocks.

Behavioral mispricing can be arbitraged. Risk cannot be arbitraged away.

Value still works and will always work due to this added risk component.

Re: The Superinvestors of Graham-and-Doddsville (1984)

#27
post #4

I belong to a fair number of value investing forums and made money off of the strategy for a while. Here's why I think this no longer works in the traditional sense and what works now: The rise of quants, ETFs, and instant information has largely arbitraged away value mispricings. So if it looks like a bargain, it's probably a value trap. So where can you find value? Where the above things are not present. Quants wor…

As an amateur, you have a lot of advantages over the "professionals".

You correctly mentioned being able to turn to smaller companies and low liquidity situations. Some professional players also self sabotage due to a particular mandate or ridiculous constraints, such as avoiding volatility. Having too much apparently useful information can also be a curse.

You can also choose to just "not play" sometimes. You don't have customers or bosses and you're only competing with yourself. Or rather, you're not competing at all. When things get confusing and very highly valued (as they have been for years now), you can just do nothing. Or at least do less.

Another advantage you have, which is related, is being able to have a very long term perspective. By which I mean a perspective measured in decades, which is the timescale at which the world and its financial conditions truly seem to change.

There's times like the late 70s/early 80s, where stock markets were not just ultra low, but pretty much COMATOSE. People just didn't do stocks. They remembered stocks as that thing from another age. At least in my country, the typical stock owners in that time were families whose patrimonium was tied up in 1 single company that they controlled. Needless to say, volume and liquidity was next to nothing. (By my understanding, conditions like these must have occured at least 4 times in the 20th century. Not yet in the 21st century, not even in 2000-2002 and 2007-2008, but it will.)

In a sort of Upside Down World mirror image of today, investors in the late 70s/early 80s were all about fearing stagflation, when the exact opposite was about to unfold due to central bankers receiving popular carte blanche for brutal anti-inflation shock therapy. They were quite literally lining up around the block to buy gold. Movies like "Rollover" were being made and Grandmaster Flash was rapping about double digit inflation.

Today it's all about "TINA" and low yields and the central banker put, while in reality central bankers are slowly moving back to taking orders from politicians and are walking on egg shells about a 0.1% hike because they suspect they have painted themselves in a corner. Back then some companies where almost literally hiding their profits ("pour vivre heureux, vivons caches") whereas today making a loss is almost something to be proud of.

That being said, even though these are very hard times for value investors, you can always keep searching. Like you say, it's a hobby, like going to flea markets. Personally, for the last few years, I've found interesting stuff going on in (certain) gold mines. No moat and a dependence on the price of a commodity most hated by Buffett. The general atmosphere there is depressing and it's definitely not a crowded place. There were 3 subsequent heavy tax loss selling years (2014, 2015 and 2016).

Yet the sector has been going through a very extensive cleaning period after the 2011-2016 nuclear winter and you can find (fairly) reliably profitable mid tier producers at very nice prices. They will still go up and down with the gold price, so you can't call them real value stocks. But the good ones can stay profitable even with lower prices and therefore do not go down as much as the others. So there is an obvious differentiation and a sizeable margin of safety, as big as it will ever be there. In that sense, they look like value plays to me. I'm comfortable being there.

In a more negative way, I've become interested in South Africa, an increasingly unstable country where 70-80% of the world's platinum and rhodium are currently being mined at massive losses. (Holding platinum and rhodium ETFs is commodities speculation rather than value stocks, but ok.)

Re: The Superinvestors of Graham-and-Doddsville (1984)

#28
post #26
post #4

I belong to a fair number of value investing forums and made money off of the strategy for a while. Here's why I think this no longer works in the traditional sense and what works now: The rise of quants, ETFs, and instant information has largely arbitraged away value mispricings. So if it looks like a bargain, it's probably a value trap. So where can you find value? Where the above things are not present. Quants wor…

The reason value works isn't just behavioral mispricing. Numerous academic studies have shown there is an inherent risk component driving the persistently larger returns found in "value" stocks. Behavioral mispricing can be arbitraged. Risk cannot be arbitraged away. Value still works and will always work due to this added risk component.

> Numerous academic studies have shown there is an inherent risk component driving the persistently larger returns found in "value" stocks.

I know this is an annoying question, but can you reference a couple of them? I’m interested in reading.

Re: The Superinvestors of Graham-and-Doddsville (1984)

#29
post #4

I belong to a fair number of value investing forums and made money off of the strategy for a while. Here's why I think this no longer works in the traditional sense and what works now: The rise of quants, ETFs, and instant information has largely arbitraged away value mispricings. So if it looks like a bargain, it's probably a value trap. So where can you find value? Where the above things are not present. Quants wor…

More of Buffet's success was from Bet-Against-Beta than from value investing. Lots of investors are liquidity and leverage constrained - many mutual funds cannot exceed 100% exposure to stocks. If they buy a stock portfolio that participates less in both bull and bear markets, they wind up underperforming over the long run.

Buffet, on the other hand, regularly buys up these low-volatility companies using borrowed money. If you take something that behaves like 80% of the S&P 500 and lever it up 125%, you'll get the performance of the S&P 500. But the 80% S&P 500 stock is cheaper than it "should" be, so you wind up over-performing instead.

Re: The Superinvestors of Graham-and-Doddsville (1984)

#30
post #4

I belong to a fair number of value investing forums and made money off of the strategy for a while. Here's why I think this no longer works in the traditional sense and what works now: The rise of quants, ETFs, and instant information has largely arbitraged away value mispricings. So if it looks like a bargain, it's probably a value trap. So where can you find value? Where the above things are not present. Quants wor…

As an amateur, you have a lot of advantages over the "professionals". You correctly mentioned being able to turn to smaller companies and low liquidity situations. Some professional players also self sabotage due to a particular mandate or ridiculous constraints, such as avoiding volatility. Having too much apparently useful information can also be a curse. You can also choose to just "not play" sometimes. You don't…

Ive had quite a few investment funds over a long period of time.

The professionals suck at their jobs.

I've consistently beat them by orders of magnitude without even trying. If the returns are not 10-25 percent every year I'm not bothering with the people that do it for a living.

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