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Elsevier demands unacceptable for Germany’s academic community

hrk.de

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Re: Elsevier demands unacceptable for Germany’s academic community

#21

Post by aurelwu »

mnl wrote: post #7
Havoc wrote: post #3

Strikes me as a lost war for Elsevier

They have almost all the assets. It's good trying to put pressure on them, because they've been abusing their position for too long, but if you can't access legally decades of references you and your institution have this problem that you can't work. Besides, if you get copies elsewhere you are liable and they can throw the copyright laws at you and win. This can only be solved with a new legal framework for IP (good…

you can still access the old articles, university libraries usually have the paper editions and cancelling the subscription does not disallow anyone from using the paper editions they once bought.

Re: Elsevier demands unacceptable for Germany’s academic community

#23

Post by mnl »

aurelwu wrote: post #21
mnl wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have almost all the assets. It's good trying to put pressure on them, because they've been abusing their position for too long, but if you can't access legally decades of references you and your institution have this problem that you can't work. Besides, if you get copies elsewhere you are liable and they can throw the copyright laws at you and win. This can only be solved with a new legal framework for IP (good…

you can still access the old articles, university libraries usually have the paper editions and cancelling the subscription does not disallow anyone from using the paper editions they once bought.

Those were the days, but going back to photocopy world won't be very good for productivity and maybe the quality of research. Being able to check everything easily is an incredible advantage. And then there's this problem of disappearing or lost issues that some might remember fondly. Quite frankly, if it comes to this everybody will get pirated copies or ask a colleague for theirs. I love paper though, a few things exist solely on it (and maybe they are in another country, how much better digital copies are cannot be overstated).

Re: Elsevier demands unacceptable for Germany’s academic community

#25

Post by rurban »

Great, because this leads to less references to Elsevier papers, which will cause their importance to decline. Papers and academics "worth" are measured by the number of references. If the papers are not free to access for academics, their importance declines.

I had the same trouble with the ANSI, ISO and Lisp papers behind expensive paywalls and just chose to ignore those. In the end the free versions won and the greedy elitists lost.

Re: Elsevier demands unacceptable for Germany’s academic community

#26

Post by DocTomoe »

There is a semi-successful media campaign against studies published in "less than reputable" journals in Germany right now. Elsevier always features prominently as "a good example", while Open Access often is associated with "bad practices".

Geez, I wonder who might have paid for that campaign.

Re: Elsevier demands unacceptable for Germany’s academic community

#27

Post by aurelwu »

mnl wrote: post #23
aurelwu wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can still access the old articles, university libraries usually have the paper editions and cancelling the subscription does not disallow anyone from using the paper editions they once bought.

Those were the days, but going back to photocopy world won't be very good for productivity and maybe the quality of research. Being able to check everything easily is an incredible advantage. And then there's this problem of disappearing or lost issues that some might remember fondly. Quite frankly, if it comes to this everybody will get pirated copies or ask a colleague for theirs. I love paper though, a few things…

I don't doubt people will get pirated copies instead of using the paper versions, but the existence of the paper versions allows them to pretend they read the paper in a legit way. I'm not taking sides for that sort of behaviour or against it, just that I expect that will be the workflow.

Re: Elsevier demands unacceptable for Germany’s academic community

#29

Post by teilo »

zaarn wrote: post #9

"Elsevier [...] is still not willing to offer a deal in the form of a nationwide agreement in Germany that responds to the needs of the academic community in line with the principles of open access and that is financially sustainable." Elsevier can truly go burn in a fire and I hope that the universities here pull this through to the end. arxiv, distill and other places are a joy to use where I can just get knowledge…

Elzevier isn't the only one, either. While not as egregious, there is Proquest, who locks private researchers out of many databases and digital works (mostly historical works) that are not available anywhere else. If one is not an enrolled student or faculty member of an institution that pays for an institutional subscription, there is no way to gain access to their databases.

This type of intellectual elitism disgusts me. It's particularly bad when I would pay for access to some of their databases, but I'm not even given the choice.

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