Why are libraries destroying books? (2002) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why are libraries destroying books? (2002)

#21

Post by phendrenad2 » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 3:54 PM UTC

Most public libraries would be better off without books. All of the books in the average public library exist in digital form.

However, go to a college library, and you’ll find tens of thousands of books which are not only not available in digital form, they may be the only remaining copies in existence.

Every time I go to the local college library I’m blown away by the number of obscure books on programming and computer science that simply don’t exist in ebook form, and likely never will (thanks copyright laws!)

Re: Why are libraries destroying books? (2002)

#22

Post by aurizon » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 3:58 PM UTC

The University of Toronto has a 'cull and sell' procedure and culled books are placed in the weekly Wednesday noon swap shop where anyone can buy all they can carry for a $1 donation. At the last swap for the season in May there were 15 large wheeled boxes of about 1 cubic yard each filled to the brim and another 20 trash totes a little bigger in the yard. Few sell. There is a steady crowd of people picking at them. I suspect their fate is pulp after they have been well picked. There used to be huge numbers of old computers etc. in the swap shop, but after a number of people cut themselves on sharp steel edges, they now accumulate and allow department employees only to scan and fill out a card so their department gets the asset if it has any enduring value - if not taken = scrapped by a recycling company approved for proper recycling of computers etc. Another complication was the development of the sulfite pulping process in the 1800's. This leaves residues of SO2 in the paper, which combined with H2O makes H2SO3 - sulfurous acid. This is a weak acid, but in time it cuts up cellulose and the paper is weakened and friable - eventually it turns to dust. Old linen paper or paper that has been washed and treated/sized to eliminate the SO2 (archival paper) can last a lot longer

Re: Why are libraries destroying books? (2002)

#23

Post by crispyambulance » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 4:07 PM UTC

phendrenad2 wrote: post #21

Most public libraries would be better off without books. All of the books in the average public library exist in digital form. However, go to a college library, and you’ll find tens of thousands of books which are not only not available in digital form, they may be the only remaining copies in existence. Every time I go to the local college library I’m blown away by the number of obscure books on programming and comp…

Libraries serve many different needs and for many, books are still important.

That said, some topics like "computing" need serious culling. "Learn Windows 95 in 24 hours" and the hundreds/thousands of utterly obsolete books really should not be wasting space.

That's ultimately what it comes down to... freeing shelf space so there's room for other stuff.

Re: Why are libraries destroying books? (2002)

#24

Post by mkirklions » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 4:11 PM UTC

phendrenad2 wrote: post #21

Most public libraries would be better off without books. All of the books in the average public library exist in digital form. However, go to a college library, and you’ll find tens of thousands of books which are not only not available in digital form, they may be the only remaining copies in existence. Every time I go to the local college library I’m blown away by the number of obscure books on programming and comp…

I am in complete agreement.

Physical books are outdated technology that are bad for the environment and outdated the moment they are printed.

Its a very emotional thing to support the library, I'm not sure why it invokes such strong feelings with children/moms, but I dont think its a smart decision to continue wasting space and resources on physical books.

Note: Nothing is black and white. There should be a strong middle-ground here.

Re: Why are libraries destroying books? (2002)

#25

Post by mkirklions » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 4:12 PM UTC

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #7

This seems to be hoarding by proxy. I understand the value of storing the information, but the paper medium itself doesn't typically hold value to me. Is there value in preserving an idiosyncratic style of bound book? Absolutely. Preserving a literal ton of regular old newspapers? Not so much. Let's digitize em and give the libraries room to further modernize so that they can stay relevant.

Very rational people here.

The moment you tap on libraries, every employee at the library goes on facebook and calls moms to revolt.

Its emotion driven, and as a result a political tool.

Re: Why are libraries destroying books? (2002)

#26

Post by oftenwrong » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 4:23 PM UTC

chris_mc wrote: post #2

Libraries throw away tons of books and stuff. If a man-made object is degraded to the point where it's garbage, why not? Sure, some of these tomes may have been recoverable, but if they aren't historically valuable for some reason, why save it? Same thing with any "historical" object, do you imagine that we'll want to save a copy of "Getting done in my butt by my butt" when it's old and yellowing just because it's ol…

>Sure, some of these tomes may have been recoverable, but if they aren't historically valuable for some reason, why save it?

Future historical value is hard to predict.

Good example:

>Worse is the implication is that if something is not "sufficiently interesting", if it's not part of the story a society wants to tell about itself, it's worthless. The future disagrees about what is and is not important, and why. That's the defining characteristic of the future. No one today cares what the Rosetta Stone actually says [4], yet it is more important to us (as the key to hieroglyphics) than it was to the society that made it.

from http://carlos.bueno.org/2008/08/save-web.html

Re: Why are libraries destroying books? (2002)

#27

Post by tokai » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 4:27 PM UTC

mkirklions wrote: post #25

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #7

This seems to be hoarding by proxy. I understand the value of storing the information, but the paper medium itself doesn't typically hold value to me. Is there value in preserving an idiosyncratic style of bound book? Absolutely. Preserving a literal ton of regular old newspapers? Not so much. Let's digitize em and give the libraries room to further modernize so that they can stay relevant.

Very rational people here. The moment you tap on libraries, every employee at the library goes on facebook and calls moms to revolt. Its emotion driven, and as a result a political tool.

Every librarian worth their salt knows that weeding is just as important as selection and acquisition. The most emotional people in regards to weeding are often people that read too little, but idolize the object of the book.

Re: Why are libraries destroying books? (2002)

#28

Post by Spooky23 » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 4:31 PM UTC

phendrenad2 wrote: post #21

Most public libraries would be better off without books. All of the books in the average public library exist in digital form. However, go to a college library, and you’ll find tens of thousands of books which are not only not available in digital form, they may be the only remaining copies in existence. Every time I go to the local college library I’m blown away by the number of obscure books on programming and comp…

That’s a wacky position. Ebooks with the exception of reference material are dramatically less accessible and more expensive.

Ebook sales are pretty poor vs paper books overall. They aren’t the future of books, but a niche. Sort of like how VCRs didn’t kill movies, but were a complement.

Re: Why are libraries destroying books? (2002)

#29

Post by iamthepieman » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 4:33 PM UTC

I serve on the board of an incorporated library and until just recently was the board president.

We have a book sale room that is about 250 square feet of well lit, clean dry space in our basement with an exterior entrance. We make a few hundred bucks a year from selling books from the sale room. A volunteer staffs the book sale room and organizes, shelves and prices the books. Even with the book sale room, which is open anytime the library is open, we have to throw out hundreds of books a year. It's not worth it to give them away. The local thrift shops and good wills mostly don't want more books.

The space would better serve the community if it were made into a maker space or turned into a classroom for special programs. We could make the entire year of book sale revenue with one by donation 4 week class.

One of the biggest tasks our librarians have is culling books. We are small and it does not serve our community if we keep books on the shelves that haven't been checked out in 15 years.

Re: Why are libraries destroying books? (2002)

#30

Post by Sangermaine » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 4:33 PM UTC

totalZero wrote: post #20

jdietrich wrote: post #11

One of my local libraries recently threw out a dumpster full of books. There was a minor public outcry at the desecration of literature. The books in the dumpster had all been on sale for the last year, priced at 10p (13 cents) each. Most of them hadn't been checked out for over a decade and some hadn't been checked out since the 1970s. Sending books to be pulped is always sad, but the truth is that there are just to…

They should try to give the books away for free before chucking them out, no? The word "free" eliminates an irrational roadblock (13c is basically free but still offers a hurdle) and if one person reads something interesting as a result, then it's a win. Also, they could box them up and offer each box off for 25c, thus offloading the responsibility of discarding the books onto individuals and preserving the notion of…

>They should try to give the books away for free before chucking them out, no?

The local library where I grew up tried this. It also doesn't really solve the problem of too many books. They would first put up surplus/old books for sale for a quarter or less, and twice a year would hold an event where they put the stock outside on tables and people could just take them for free. They were always left with tons of books even after all that.

It's sad to see books destroyed but they literally can't give them all away, and each building only has so much space.