The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand • Hacker News Board

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#21

Post by rconti » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 4:04 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #8

There's an old saying among firefighters: "The fire service is 200+ years of tradition, unimpeded by progress". Now obviously that isn't strictly true, and SF does have some good reasons for sticking with their wooden ladders... but one can't help but suspect that sheer tradition is a somewhat significant factor. Of course some departments adopt change faster than others, and some kinds of change are adopted more rea…

It's interesting, and I wonder to what extent sticking to tradition like this also helps them stick to tradition with regards to values. I mean, obviously, not all values from 200 years ago are worth hanging on to, but I see the firehouse as a place of mutual respect and trust and understanding. I wonder how much of that culture would fade if they just threw everything away and replaced it, had a purchasing department, etc. (for example).

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#22

Post by lisper » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 4:04 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #8

There's an old saying among firefighters: "The fire service is 200+ years of tradition, unimpeded by progress". Now obviously that isn't strictly true, and SF does have some good reasons for sticking with their wooden ladders... but one can't help but suspect that sheer tradition is a somewhat significant factor. Of course some departments adopt change faster than others, and some kinds of change are adopted more rea…

> one can't help but suspect that sheer tradition is a somewhat significant factor

Only if you didn't read the article.

"There's a city-specific reason why San Francisco has stuck with wood rather than swap over to metals, and the answer lies in looking up. The high-voltage cables and wires that guide the city's (oft-maligned) public transport system Muni, and trolley cars crisscross above nearly every street, mean that ladders made of conductive elements are generally just too dangerous to use."

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#23

Post by was_boring » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 4:05 PM UTC

mathattack wrote: post #18

kwhitefoot wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- a lesson from outside of the software industry. Not really, just a forgotten one. Fred Brooks described his ideal development team in The Mythical Man Month and it included a toolmaker.

That was also written before there were many commercially available tools. (Still a great book!) Perhaps tool specialist is more important today?

I believe a toolmaker on a team is still critically important. I have yet to see a team or organization that doesn't have a suite of (often poorly maintained) custom tooling that automates things together or provides functionality critical to the business.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#24

Post by enriquto » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 4:05 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #13

legitster wrote: post #2

If you get a chance to visit a Smokejumper base, I highly recommend it. One of the things you learn is that everyone on the team is required to make all of their own equipment by hand. So all of these highly trained, ex-military guys spend days on end doing nothing but sewing clothes and packing parachutes. The reasons described: - Cheaper than contracting out everything - They have a better idea of the exact specifi…

It makes sense for a job where 95% of the time is spent waiting for an emergency to react to .

> a job where 95% of the time is spent waiting for an emergency to react to.

this describes quite accurately the work of many people maintaining computer systems

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#25

Post by davio » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 4:06 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #11

Americans seem to take a lot of pride in their fire brigades - their fire engines are still shiny and polished with more traditional signage and the fire fighters still wear helmets with their traditional shape. In the United Kingdom they wear more simple uniforms and the engines are just a box shape with no bells any more - seems a shame. Usually it's UK the has more ceremony in these kind of things.

You should see the fire engines in mountain towns. They look like monster trucks.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#26

Post by heartbreak » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 4:07 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #9

legitster wrote: post #2

If you get a chance to visit a Smokejumper base, I highly recommend it. One of the things you learn is that everyone on the team is required to make all of their own equipment by hand. So all of these highly trained, ex-military guys spend days on end doing nothing but sewing clothes and packing parachutes. The reasons described: - Cheaper than contracting out everything - They have a better idea of the exact specifi…

The San Franciso Fire Department is using wooden ladders due to an abundance of overhead power lines. Which I think is the core issue, use other peoples tools unless you have some critical and unique requirement.

They could buy wooden ladders, so I don't think that paints the whole picture.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#27

Post by AdieuToLogic » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 4:09 PM UTC

The Discovery Channel's "Dirty Jobs"[0] show made a segment involving the SFFD's ladder construction/maintenance crew. In it, they explained that wooden ladders are cheaper to maintain than aluminum ones and I think also discount fiberglass ladders as well.

It's worth a watch if one is interested in this topic.

0 - http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/dirty-jobs/about-this-show...

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#28

Post by rhizome » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 4:09 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #6

mylons wrote: post #4

artisanal ladders

x2. This seems like a case where there probably exists better options but the cost and friction of switching is too high. As long as the money's still coming there's no reason to look for alternatives though, especially when looking for alternatives would involve doing battle with a union over the jobs the alternatives would eliminate. Does SF really have that many more overhead power lines than other cities to warra…

Not everything has to be measured in terms of economics.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#29

Post by craftyguy » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 4:10 PM UTC

enriquto wrote: post #24

BurningFrog wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes sense for a job where 95% of the time is spent waiting for an emergency to react to .

> a job where 95% of the time is spent waiting for an emergency to react to. this describes quite accurately the work of many people maintaining computer systems

I must be maintaining the wrong systems, because over here 95% of the time is reacting to emergencies (some technical, but most fabricated by management)

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#30

Post by mc32 » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 4:10 PM UTC

enriquto wrote: post #24

BurningFrog wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes sense for a job where 95% of the time is spent waiting for an emergency to react to .

> a job where 95% of the time is spent waiting for an emergency to react to. this describes quite accurately the work of many people maintaining computer systems

Maybe but don’t tell their managers who would then layoff the 95% thinking they’re making the team 100% efficient and then wonder why things went to hell in hand basket.