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Marine experiment finds women get injured more frequently

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Re: Marine experiment finds women get injured more frequently

#21
post #12

Women also feel pain more strongly than men and have a lower tolerance for it: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S235215461...

I was told in high school that the opposite was true, because of childbirth.

Don't think there would be much evolutionary pressure to have less pain during childbirth but feeling less pain when injured during hunting (a historically male activity) would certainly be useful and I could see it being selected for.

Re: Marine experiment finds women get injured more frequently

#22
To some extent, this is not surprising. However, the conclusions that are going to be drawn from the evidence are pretty unsubstantiated.

Women and men have different physiologies, particularly in terms of how the typical "average" build works out and in terms of the configuration of hips. The finding that women are going to have more hip injuries than men should not consequently be surprising, and other injuries relating to, for example, carrying more than they should be carrying, being relatively higher in women is also to be expected.

However, the problem is that the methodology ends up being poor. People advocating for integration of women into the infantry or other physically intensive jobs are not expecting to use different physical fitness criterion for women and men for these jobs, so comparing average women to average men is not the appropriate metric to be evaluating them.

Re: Marine experiment finds women get injured more frequently

#23
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never seen a female welder, mechanic, miner, or construction worker in my life.

That's only because of cultural biases. If women were treated the same as men throughout childhood you'd see equal representation.

This is the wrong way to go about things; I'm a very strong beleiver in the principle of equality, that is, the equality in all social dealings of men and women, between races, abled and disabled, those of different nationalities, of different professions etc. But it must be stressed that asserting people have the same capabilities isn't the right way to go about it. Your principle will fail the second that we get to some imbalance which can't be whisked away as you're doing now - for example, you wouldn't make the same claim about someone with Down's syndrome being compared to someone without.

Your failing is that you predicate the idea of equality on utilitarian grounds, that is to say, you believe people should be treated equally, and so you try to justify this by saying they're actually the same in mental and physical tasks. This doesn't work, and it can't be generalised. There are differences, but we should be saying: those differences shouldn't matter to the worth of a person (if we really must go about considering people in the economic sense of having value, which I think is a concept worth repudiating).

The claim you're making seems much more like a strawman, so I'd be inclined to say you're trolling; a strawman very similar to yours was made by Tugan more than 100 years ago, and quickly put down by V.I. Lenin[0]:

>It goes without saying that in this respect men are not equal. No sensible person and no socialist forgets this. But this kind of equality has nothing whatever to do with socialism. If Mr. Tugan is quite unable to think, he is at least able to read; were lie to Lake the well-known work of one of the founders of scientific socialism, Frederick Engels, directed against Dühring, he would find there a special section explaining the absurdity of imagining that economic equality means anything else than the abolition of classes.

[0] https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/mar/11.htm

Re: Marine experiment finds women get injured more frequently

#24

This study was sexist and is perpetuating gender stereotypes which have existed in the male-dominated culture for the last few thousand years. Men and women are capable of performing the exact same tasks equally well. Any hiring should treat genders exactly equal.

Not sure if you are a die hard social constructivist or just trolling, but your last point was true. Each gender should have the same opportunity.

Re: Marine experiment finds women get injured more frequently

#25

didn't bother to read the article, but is it perhaps partly due to the fact that women are more likely to report their injuries compared to men? There can be a lot of pressure on men to just "suck it up" and not report injuries.

The breakdown of incidence reports strongly suggests that the cause is entirely predictable: loading up individuals to carry more than they can carry in good health, which is going to affect women (which are disproportionately smaller and less massive) more than men. The study made no attempt to control for that, which is quite frankly irresponsible.

Re: Marine experiment finds women get injured more frequently

#26
post #12

Women also feel pain more strongly than men and have a lower tolerance for it: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S235215461...

I was told in high school that the opposite was true, because of childbirth.

I heard that women are more stoical with visceral pain and men cope better with "exterior" pain. This makes sense but I've no idea if it's really true.

Re: Marine experiment finds women get injured more frequently

#27

didn't bother to read the article, but is it perhaps partly due to the fact that women are more likely to report their injuries compared to men? There can be a lot of pressure on men to just "suck it up" and not report injuries.

The breakdown of incidence reports strongly suggests that the cause is entirely predictable: loading up individuals to carry more than they can carry in good health, which is going to affect women (which are disproportionately smaller and less massive) more than men. The study made no attempt to control for that, which is quite frankly irresponsible.

Don't you have to carry the same amount of equipment, and thus equal weight, as a soldier of any gender?

Re: Marine experiment finds women get injured more frequently

#28
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The breakdown of incidence reports strongly suggests that the cause is entirely predictable: loading up individuals to carry more than they can carry in good health, which is going to affect women (which are disproportionately smaller and less massive) more than men. The study made no attempt to control for that, which is quite frankly irresponsible.

Don't you have to carry the same amount of equipment, and thus equal weight, as a soldier of any gender?

Yes. As I mentioned in another comment, however, pretty much everyone who wants to expand these sorts of positions to women expect that they would be held to the same standards (e.g., fitness requirements) that men in these positions, while the study itself drew from women based only on the current fitness standards, which are easier for women than men.

Re: Marine experiment finds women get injured more frequently

#29
post #12

Women also feel pain more strongly than men and have a lower tolerance for it: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S235215461...

I was told in high school that the opposite was true, because of childbirth.

It's not clear how people can die from pain itself in childbirth, directly or indirectly, so I don't see how that could be selected for.

People can die indirectly from pain on the battlefield or while hunting, because it leaves you vulnerable to being killed while you're distracted by it. So there's definitely an adaptive advantage for men to develop pain resistance.

Re: Marine experiment finds women get injured more frequently

#30
If you ask "what did men evolve to do that women didn't?", math, politics, philosophy and engineering would be wrong answers, because for most of human history (and all preindustrial history) only a tiny fraction of people did those things, and in some societies they were women. By contrast, war is fundamentally human -- it has been with us for as long as records are available, and societies often conscripted large fractions of the population -- and historically it was almost entirely performed by men. The only more masculine activity than war is peeing while standing up.
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