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Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

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Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#21

Post by klenwell »

To get past the affirmative-action-is-reverse-racism argument that often frame these discussions, I'd recommend checking out this thoughtful breakdown of the case from Metafilter:

Yeah, debates over affirmative action are just one of many situations where the Asian American "model-minority" mythos gets used in service of anti-Black and anti-Latinx racism, and I encourage other Asian Americans to resist being used as tools for this agenda. Our proximity to whiteness will not protect us. Our ancestors never enjoyed it, and it will not save our children. In solidarity with other minorities, we can use the privilege we have to dismantle the systems that oppress the most vulnerable among us.

On multiple occasions in my life, white people irl have complained to me about how affirmative action disadvantages Asian Americans, clearly expecting me to agree. I think this demonstrates a profound and/or willful ignorance of history? Racism against Asian Americans definitely exists -- but anti-Asian racism looks very different from anti-Black and anti-Latinx racism, it has different historical roots, and it has had different historical impacts. In some contexts, Asian Americans get the privileges associated with proximity to whiteness, and in other contexts, they don't.

I think the educational system leading up to elite universities and white-collar professional fields is one context where Asian American and white people generally get profound advantages.

https://www.metafilter.com/174730/Asian-American-Students-Su...

As this comment notes, the guy behind this case clearly has a clear ideological axe to grind:

I love to see Harvard squirm, and they surely deserve whatever fallout comes their way from this case. But there's some context here worth keeping in mind: this lawsuit is part of a sustained campaign by neocon perpetual litigant Edward Blum to kill affirmative action. He is the same guy behind Fisher v. University of Texas (previously), which claimed that a white applicant was the victim of "reverse racism." Whatever the merits and facts of Harvard's specific treatment of Asian-American applicants, Blum will be seeking the broadest possible ruling against race-based admissions policies across the board.

https://www.metafilter.com/174730/Asian-American-Students-Su...

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#22

Post by Alex3917 »

gourial wrote: post #4

By enforcing racial quotas, Harvard and other institutions are actively cementing race as an important factor in our society, as if it's something we should care about. As such, they are not helping society to become post-racial - as must be our goal - but instead are forcing a racialized view of the world down our collective throats. While well intentioned, racial quotas are a regressive policy and history will look…

> By enforcing racial quotas, Harvard and other institutions are actively cementing race as an important factor in our society

That's not really accurate. If you look at the Coleman report, the main study that was done in the run up to school desegregation and forced busing, it showed a bunch of negative impacts to changing the racial balance of institutions too quickly. That research was largely ignored, which in part lead to white flight, inner city gangs, and a bunch of other issues we still haven't really recovered from to this day.

Contrast this to the integration of gays in the military, which was done over a few years rather than all at once and went much more smoothly -- you didn't see any major issues or society-wide backlash as a result.

The point is that policies that ignore race often make racial issues more salient and pronounced as a result, rather than leading to a society where race isn't a factor or whatever. That's not to say that Harvard isn't doing anything wrong, but it's naive to assume that ignoring race is going to lead to some sort of post racial society.

C.f.: http://pages.jh.edu/jhumag/0400web/18.html

It's actually still one of the biggest studies ever done and probably that ever will be done, because it was conducted before they really understood the math behind representative samples and statistical significance, so it had way more participants than were actually needed.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#23

Post by [deleted] »

brighteyes wrote: post #11
Rotdhizon wrote: post #6

On the contrary, I wonder how people would view the school if it had no racial based entrances and people were entered solely based on their academic merit. Would people look negatively on the school if it were 90%+ asian-american students?

It wouldn't be 90%. It would be 40%, most likely, because that's what happens in California universities that don't have racial quotas. Even if it would somehow go up to 90%, and people viewed that negatively, why does that matter? Those people are wrong.

[deleted]

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#24

Post by albntomat0 »

davidwihl wrote: post #12
gourial wrote: post #4

By enforcing racial quotas, Harvard and other institutions are actively cementing race as an important factor in our society, as if it's something we should care about. As such, they are not helping society to become post-racial - as must be our goal - but instead are forcing a racialized view of the world down our collective throats. While well intentioned, racial quotas are a regressive policy and history will look…

I really don't see it as Harvard enforcing racial quotas but rather looking at the whole student not just academics and standardized test scores. I applaud them for attempting to create a diverse and varied student body. Do you have a better alternative or would you select a student body just by GPA and standardized tests?

That's not what the article said. The key point is that Asian applications scored well in "whole person" metrics when evaluated face to face, from teachers, high school counselors, and alumni interviews, but much worse when graded by Harvard admissions officers, on supposedly similar categories.

All of those subjective ratings should be heavily correlated, as they are all trying to measure the same things.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#25

Post by [deleted] »

klenwell wrote: post #21

To get past the affirmative-action-is-reverse-racism argument that often frame these discussions, I'd recommend checking out this thoughtful breakdown of the case from Metafilter: Yeah, debates over affirmative action are just one of many situations where the Asian American "model-minority" mythos gets used in service of anti-Black and anti-Latinx racism, and I encourage other Asian Americans to resist being used as…

[deleted]

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#26

Post by mlthoughts2018 »

seibelj wrote: post #14

An anecdote about the evolving value of higher education: I received a resume recently for a junior software engineer role. Under the 'Education' section was a paragraph that listed a prestigious university and entrance year, but under it stated something like, "I was accepted to this university, but rather than attend and go over $100,000 in debt, I taught myself computer science and coding for 3 years with online t…

I’m not optimistic. Nobody is actually struggling to find talent, rather they are just not willing to pay competitive wages.

If your goal is to underpay someone at all costs, then I agree getting creative with the types of candidate backgrounds you’ll consider might work.

Otherwise, college experience is just another way of getting some signal or info about a candidate’s talent. It’s not a guarantee of anything, just an often useful signal.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#27

Post by sremani »

davidwihl wrote: post #12
gourial wrote: post #4

By enforcing racial quotas, Harvard and other institutions are actively cementing race as an important factor in our society, as if it's something we should care about. As such, they are not helping society to become post-racial - as must be our goal - but instead are forcing a racialized view of the world down our collective throats. While well intentioned, racial quotas are a regressive policy and history will look…

I really don't see it as Harvard enforcing racial quotas but rather looking at the whole student not just academics and standardized test scores. I applaud them for attempting to create a diverse and varied student body. Do you have a better alternative or would you select a student body just by GPA and standardized tests?

>> -- staffers who are likely under pressure to deliver a target mix of ethnicities each year --

under pressure to deliver a target mix of ethnicities sounds more like, we do not have a hard quota but we have a wink-and-nod quota.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#28

Post by [deleted] »

brighteyes wrote: post #11
Rotdhizon wrote: post #6

On the contrary, I wonder how people would view the school if it had no racial based entrances and people were entered solely based on their academic merit. Would people look negatively on the school if it were 90%+ asian-american students?

It wouldn't be 90%. It would be 40%, most likely, because that's what happens in California universities that don't have racial quotas. Even if it would somehow go up to 90%, and people viewed that negatively, why does that matter? Those people are wrong.

[deleted]

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#29

Post by eganist »

ronyeh wrote: post #16
davidwihl wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't see it as Harvard enforcing racial quotas but rather looking at the whole student not just academics and standardized test scores. I applaud them for attempting to create a diverse and varied student body. Do you have a better alternative or would you select a student body just by GPA and standardized tests?

Very easy. Admissions should be race blind and name blind. Everything else, including socioeconomic background, can be included in the admissions packet.

Socioeconomic background is blocked out for need-blind schools, of which there are a ton, Harvard included.

The application process becomes a strict meritocracy when all of these points (race/name/need) are blocked, which works in a perfect world but does not work when you consider that socioeconomic disparities tend to impact minority races the most. Strict meritocracies are favored in the bay but are substantially out of favor everywhere else precisely because so many minorities are born directly into a disadvantage.

To encourage the leveling of socioeconomic success, race-aware admissions will probably be necessary until we as a country start seeing success in moving the odds of economic success closer to the center rather than in favor of white males.

Anyway this isn't really a commentary on this specific lawsuit so much as it's a response to the suggestion of blinding multiple other categories out.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#30

Post by JumpCrisscross »

albntomat0 wrote: post #24
davidwihl wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't see it as Harvard enforcing racial quotas but rather looking at the whole student not just academics and standardized test scores. I applaud them for attempting to create a diverse and varied student body. Do you have a better alternative or would you select a student body just by GPA and standardized tests?

That's not what the article said. The key point is that Asian applications scored well in "whole person" metrics when evaluated face to face, from teachers, high school counselors, and alumni interviews, but much worse when graded by Harvard admissions officers, on supposedly similar categories. All of those subjective ratings should be heavily correlated, as they are all trying to measure the same things.

> All of those subjective ratings should be heavily correlated

I wouldn't go so far. If your measures always correlate, why have separate measures? The point is when one measure disagrees with the others, it should say something meaningful. In this case, the disagreement appears to say "this student is Asian."

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