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Recovery of Lost Indigenous Languages by Optical Scanning of Old Wax Cylinders

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Re: Recovery of Lost Indigenous Languages by Optical Scanning of Old Wax Cylinders

#21

Post by badminton1 »

It is sad that so much indigenous knowledge was lost.

One of the most infamous events in the Americas was when Roman Catholic Bishop Diego de Landa (1524 - 1579) burned thousands of Mayan codices, an event comparable to the destruction of the Library of Alexandria. The motivation was the extermination of Mayan culture.

To put things in perspective, how would you feel if all works written in the English language were piled up and burned? One thing is to disagree with the content of whatever document, another thing is to permanently suppress it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_de_Landa

Likewise, a lot of artifacts from the first civilizations like Sumer were lost over the last couple of decades because of wars in the middle east resulting in museum sackings. The artifacts that were not destroyed, are probably now contaminated and proving their authenticity will be very hard.

Some people do not support the presence of ancient artifacts museums in foreign museums, but in retrospective, the more distributed and safer those artifacts are, the better.

Re: Recovery of Lost Indigenous Languages by Optical Scanning of Old Wax Cylinders

#22

Post by 8bitsrule »

I was disappointed not to hear any audio from their proto-example, the 148 cylinders of Ishi's speech (in the Yahi language).

OTOH, the article did expand Ishi's story for me, if sadly, by pointing out that he was of mixed Indian blood - and so was not the last Yahi.

Maybe the most famous indian recordist was Frances Densmore, who made 2500 recordings of 'Chippewa' music. Today I searched in vain for 15 minutes to find a collection (more than a handful) of some of those recordings.

Once again, a glaring lack of appreciation for our own history. Which will probably be rewarded karmicly when our own, 'who cares' history is forgotten.

Re: Recovery of Lost Indigenous Languages by Optical Scanning of Old Wax Cylinders

#23

Post by omegaworks »

japhyr wrote: post #7
Aloha wrote: post #2

"Due to the culturally sensitive material of the content on these cylinders, and out of respect for the contemporary descendants of many of the performers on the recordings, access to the majority of the audio being digitized is currently restricted." I'd like to learn more about the cultures of the peoples in this country who came before me - but I am apparently not 'enlightened' enough to experience their words.

I live in southeast Alaska, and it's a pretty interesting place to live culturally. Alaska Native people were hurt deeply by contact with outsiders. For those unfamiliar with the history, it was a series of events. First, contact brought diseases that native people had limited immunity to. Smallpox, influenza, and tuberculosis killed on the order of 70% of the population of many villages in a single generation. Then…

There's a very concrete, contemporary rationale, as well. Our culture values and facilitates the commodification of other cultures above their preservation. Simply examine the way that Disney has presented (and profited from) depictions of various peoples of the world. In its latest iteration, even going as far as trying to trademark "The Day of The Dead"[1]

1. https://www.cnn.com/2013/05/10/us/disney-trademark-day-dead/...

Re: Recovery of Lost Indigenous Languages by Optical Scanning of Old Wax Cylinders

#24

Post by japhyr »

sgt101 wrote: post #18
weeksie wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny. I grew up in Cordova and though I'm not Native, my step brother and my half sister are. I wonder how different things are up there these days because I never got the impression that Natives were protective of their stories and traditions in the way that you mention. Then again, I moved away 20 years ago and the last time I visited was five years back. Things might have shifted in the intervening two decades, o…

I suppose that the idea of Native is a homogenisation of many separate cultures and identities. Perhaps some of the peoples feel that their traditions are to be shared, and others do not?

It's not quite as simple as that. Around here, clans have ownership of stories and artifacts. But not all stories are held privately. Some are very public, and are published in books and are regularly rewritten, retold, and reillustrated. But some are quite private. It's up to each clan how closely to hold its stories.

Many of us have this structure in our own families. When I was younger I heard some stories about certain family members that I was free to tell anyone. I can tell you that I was born in Guam because my father was in the Navy and he and my mom were stationed there when I was born. But there are other stories in our family that it would be quite disrespectful for me to share in public.

With Native groups from southeast Alaska, these ownership issues have been much more formalized, over a much longer time period, than what I saw in my family.

Re: Recovery of Lost Indigenous Languages by Optical Scanning of Old Wax Cylinders

#25

Post by acdha »

weeksie wrote: post #16
japhyr wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in southeast Alaska, and it's a pretty interesting place to live culturally. Alaska Native people were hurt deeply by contact with outsiders. For those unfamiliar with the history, it was a series of events. First, contact brought diseases that native people had limited immunity to. Smallpox, influenza, and tuberculosis killed on the order of 70% of the population of many villages in a single generation. Then…

Funny. I grew up in Cordova and though I'm not Native, my step brother and my half sister are. I wonder how different things are up there these days because I never got the impression that Natives were protective of their stories and traditions in the way that you mention. Then again, I moved away 20 years ago and the last time I visited was five years back. Things might have shifted in the intervening two decades, o…

I’m sure there’s variation across groups, not to mention generational differences in assertiveness, but also consider the range of recordings which might exist. I was at the Museums and the Web conference a few years ago and there was a really interesting talk by a Canadian talking about the software they had to build to meet their agreements. Even with a single tribe you might have some recordings which were public but others which were considered tribal secrets (i.e. they restricted logins to verified members), some which were only for men or women, some which were only for elders or shamans, etc.

Re: Recovery of Lost Indigenous Languages by Optical Scanning of Old Wax Cylinders

#26

Post by pessimizer »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #12
Aloha wrote: post #2

"Due to the culturally sensitive material of the content on these cylinders, and out of respect for the contemporary descendants of many of the performers on the recordings, access to the majority of the audio being digitized is currently restricted." I'd like to learn more about the cultures of the peoples in this country who came before me - but I am apparently not 'enlightened' enough to experience their words.

Concern over the "intellectual property" of indigenous people within linguistics is mainly a North American thing, and the bureaucracy put in place to ensure that you follow all these guidelines is astounding. Unfortunately, North American academics have been pushing for these ethics rules to extend to all parts of the globe, even in places where the relationship between foreign scholars and local people is not the s…

I hope you don't respect copyright, trade secrets, patents or NDAs in general, not just the intellectual property frameworks used by cultures that you're not a member of. All intellectual property inconveniences someone; that's its entire purpose.

Not that you're making an argument here against native secrecy and privacy traditions being written into law, but you seem to be saying that you don't feel any obligation to follow them.

Re: Recovery of Lost Indigenous Languages by Optical Scanning of Old Wax Cylinders

#27

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

pessimizer wrote: post #26
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Concern over the "intellectual property" of indigenous people within linguistics is mainly a North American thing, and the bureaucracy put in place to ensure that you follow all these guidelines is astounding. Unfortunately, North American academics have been pushing for these ethics rules to extend to all parts of the globe, even in places where the relationship between foreign scholars and local people is not the s…

I hope you don't respect copyright, trade secrets, patents or NDAs in general, not just the intellectual property frameworks used by cultures that you're not a member of. All intellectual property inconveniences someone; that's its entire purpose. Not that you're making an argument here against native secrecy and privacy traditions being written into law, but you seem to be saying that you don't feel any obligation t…

> I hope you don't respect copyright, trade secrets, patents or NDAs in general

No, I don’t really. I mean, I come from Eastern Europe where torrenting films/music/books is entirely mainstream. And within academia internationally, people are regularly using Sci-Hub and LibGen, or uploading papers of theirs to Academia.edu in violation of the publisher’s insistence that they can only distribute a few paper reprints. If you want to claim that intellectual property is sacred, you will have a hard time convincing lots of people in this field.

Re: Recovery of Lost Indigenous Languages by Optical Scanning of Old Wax Cylinders

#29

Post by pvaldes »

japhyr wrote: post #7
Aloha wrote: post #2

"Due to the culturally sensitive material of the content on these cylinders, and out of respect for the contemporary descendants of many of the performers on the recordings, access to the majority of the audio being digitized is currently restricted." I'd like to learn more about the cultures of the peoples in this country who came before me - but I am apparently not 'enlightened' enough to experience their words.

I live in southeast Alaska, and it's a pretty interesting place to live culturally. Alaska Native people were hurt deeply by contact with outsiders. For those unfamiliar with the history, it was a series of events. First, contact brought diseases that native people had limited immunity to. Smallpox, influenza, and tuberculosis killed on the order of 70% of the population of many villages in a single generation. Then…

Is a romantic point of view but also a biased one. Yes, I agree that Native People were victims of diseases and suffered a lot of abuses.

But would would be unfair not to mention that they received also some in exchange. They benefit of a new universe of human knowledge, around four thousand years of philosophy, technology and science and incredible advances on medicine and surgery that the native people couldn't even dream.

The grandsons of the Natives from American continent own also now three languages, English, Spanish and Portuguese that are a blessing and a world of new opportunities.

This is not being mentally punished, is being mentally boosted and rewarded with the keys of the planet.

Re: Recovery of Lost Indigenous Languages by Optical Scanning of Old Wax Cylinders

#30

Post by mmjaa »

pvaldes wrote: post #29
japhyr wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in southeast Alaska, and it's a pretty interesting place to live culturally. Alaska Native people were hurt deeply by contact with outsiders. For those unfamiliar with the history, it was a series of events. First, contact brought diseases that native people had limited immunity to. Smallpox, influenza, and tuberculosis killed on the order of 70% of the population of many villages in a single generation. Then…

Is a romantic point of view but also a biased one. Yes, I agree that Native People were victims of diseases and suffered a lot of abuses. But would would be unfair not to mention that they received also some in exchange. They benefit of a new universe of human knowledge, around four thousand years of philosophy, technology and science and incredible advances on medicine and surgery that the native people couldn't eve…

This is the violent language of the usurper and invader: be grateful for what we bring you, for what you had before was inferior.

Honestly, very disrespectful. I think you've proven the reasoning behind keeping these recordings restricted; the respect is still not there, a hundred years later, for so-called 'cultures of lesser means'.

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