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Musk, Zuckerberg, Bezos, and Ethically Iffy ‘Philanthropy'

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Re: Musk, Zuckerberg, Bezos, and Ethically Iffy ‘Philanthropy'

#21
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conversely, why should I care about the trillions of people here after I die? Why should I care if humanity dies in it's birthplace or spreads across the universe like a virus? To me, a future with a trillion happy people is not better than a future with a million happy people just because there are more happy people. Life has no inherent value that makes me consider it worth spreading.

>Life has no inherent value that makes me consider it worth spreading. This is probably not true, given that you seem to value your own life. (It also runs afoul of failing to meaningfully designate what makes value 'inherent' or not, or why this is a feature of value you should care about in the first place.) But the main flaw in your philosophical argument is that it presumes a particular form of 'self-identity' th…

I do value my own life, because it already exists. I also value other life that also exists. I do not value future life that does not exist. Future life and current life seem very different to me.

Putting your billions towards the long view seems to require you not putting your billions towards the short view. The short view is the one that affects those who are already alive so that seems like a better option to me.

Re: Musk, Zuckerberg, Bezos, and Ethically Iffy ‘Philanthropy'

#22
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Life has no inherent value that makes me consider it worth spreading. This is probably not true, given that you seem to value your own life. (It also runs afoul of failing to meaningfully designate what makes value 'inherent' or not, or why this is a feature of value you should care about in the first place.) But the main flaw in your philosophical argument is that it presumes a particular form of 'self-identity' th…

I do value my own life, because it already exists. I also value other life that also exists. I do not value future life that does not exist. Future life and current life seem very different to me. Putting your billions towards the long view seems to require you not putting your billions towards the short view. The short view is the one that affects those who are already alive so that seems like a better option to me.

I don't think that's true though. If you put your billions into the long view, you're still putting it in someone's hands today, and they will spend it today. They just won't spend it as myopically.

>The short view is the one that affects those who are already alive so that seems like a better option to me.

My argument is that "to me" doesn't have to end at the inside of your skull. That's a matter of your own social conditioning and chosen philosophy. "To me" could very easily include people who are not alive yet, if you wanted it to. So your identity doesn't necessarily end at yourself -- people frequently incorporate their friends, family, peers, society, species, etc., into their identity. You very probably do this too, so it's more odd that you'd make an exception for money in this case.

Re: Musk, Zuckerberg, Bezos, and Ethically Iffy ‘Philanthropy'

#24
The main thing I dislike is Bezos mentioning there being trillions of humans, with the assumption growth must continue and we'll figure it out.

The assumption that we must grow and spread through the galaxy, rather than determine if there's some sort of reasonable limit to keeping Earth in order first, seems inherently flawed in assuming unlimited population inflation in itself is net 'good.'

Re: Musk, Zuckerberg, Bezos, and Ethically Iffy ‘Philanthropy'

#25
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do value my own life, because it already exists. I also value other life that also exists. I do not value future life that does not exist. Future life and current life seem very different to me. Putting your billions towards the long view seems to require you not putting your billions towards the short view. The short view is the one that affects those who are already alive so that seems like a better option to me.

I don't think that's true though. If you put your billions into the long view, you're still putting it in someone's hands today, and they will spend it today. They just won't spend it as myopically. >The short view is the one that affects those who are already alive so that seems like a better option to me. My argument is that "to me" doesn't have to end at the inside of your skull. That's a matter of your own social…

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I do understand people incorporating their friends and family into their identity but I'm not sure how that logic would extend to people that don't exist (yet).

What you're saying seems to be an explanation of why people care about the future. I'm looking more for an argument about why people should care about the future.

I hope that makes sense. Regardless, I've enjoyed your comments to so far. I appreciate you taking the time to write them.

Re: Musk, Zuckerberg, Bezos, and Ethically Iffy ‘Philanthropy'

#26
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. And reading through the article, I didn't really see any argument made against why what Musk, Zuckerberg, or Bezos are doing is unethical. When all is said and done, Bill Gates will go down as the person who saved more human lives in a systematic and deliberate way than any other human in history. We need people like him. We also need people like Jeff Bezos, who seems to naturally operate on a super long-ter…

> Bill Gates will go down as the person who saved more human lives in a systematic and deliberate way than any other human in history There's nothing special about doing it in a systematic and deliberate way. According to legend, the Yellow Emperor taught the Chinese to practice agriculture. In terms of contribution to human life, this would dwarf anything Bill Gates could ever accomplish. In reality, of course, agri…

Of course, there is something special about doing it in a systematic and deliberate way. Gates has studied how to best use his money to save the most lives and is doing just that.

Do you think there is a moral and ethical difference between someone who harms someone in a systematic and deliberate way and someone like Oppenheimer who played an essential role in developing nuclear weaponry?

Re: Musk, Zuckerberg, Bezos, and Ethically Iffy ‘Philanthropy'

#27
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bill Gates will go down as the person who saved more human lives in a systematic and deliberate way than any other human in history There's nothing special about doing it in a systematic and deliberate way. According to legend, the Yellow Emperor taught the Chinese to practice agriculture. In terms of contribution to human life, this would dwarf anything Bill Gates could ever accomplish. In reality, of course, agri…

Reminds me of Haber-Bosch, credited for saving billions of lives via synthetic fertilizer. http://www.scienceheroes.com/

Assuming this is true, it seems reasonable that on larger timescales, and with greater resources, even more future human lives can be saved. It's a refreshing view, considering my main impetus for a long time has been, "Reduce suffering in the universe." Actively trying to create more life is antithetical to that goal, as suffering is an integral experience of a sufficiently intelligent being. I don't mean to say that that's where I've landed, but my mind is beginning to claw at the edified ethical structures it has built up, thanks to this mega-long-term frame.

Does it make sense to make the universe more welcoming to life, if life is the vehicle of suffering? Would Super-AI's possibly have unbounded levels of suffering-potential? If there is a non-zero chance of that being true, is creating AI the ultimate ethical iniquity possible?

The people that were saved by this fertilizer, did their lives contribute to a net reduction in suffering in the universe? I'm doubtful of that but I'm beginning to question the edge value of this Singerian utilitarian philosophy.

Re: Musk, Zuckerberg, Bezos, and Ethically Iffy ‘Philanthropy'

#28
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's true though. If you put your billions into the long view, you're still putting it in someone's hands today, and they will spend it today. They just won't spend it as myopically. >The short view is the one that affects those who are already alive so that seems like a better option to me. My argument is that "to me" doesn't have to end at the inside of your skull. That's a matter of your own social…

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I do understand people incorporating their friends and family into their identity but I'm not sure how that logic would extend to people that don't exist (yet). What you're saying seems to be an explanation of why people care about the future. I'm looking more for an argument about why people should care about the future. I hope that makes sense. Regardless, I've enjoyed your…

The joy, wonder, and awe I experience today is a large part due to the sacrifices of people who are no longer alive. If you could do something today to positively affect the well being of someone in Africa, would see the value in it? How is that so different than doing something that would affect the value of people who will exist in the future?

Re: Musk, Zuckerberg, Bezos, and Ethically Iffy ‘Philanthropy'

#29
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's true though. If you put your billions into the long view, you're still putting it in someone's hands today, and they will spend it today. They just won't spend it as myopically. >The short view is the one that affects those who are already alive so that seems like a better option to me. My argument is that "to me" doesn't have to end at the inside of your skull. That's a matter of your own social…

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I do understand people incorporating their friends and family into their identity but I'm not sure how that logic would extend to people that don't exist (yet). What you're saying seems to be an explanation of why people care about the future. I'm looking more for an argument about why people should care about the future. I hope that makes sense. Regardless, I've enjoyed your…

Alright, well you've given me a laugh, because you're basically asking me to tell you what the meaning of life is. :) And I'm probably arrogant enough to think I have something interesting to say on the matter, so I'll try to answer your question. Hopefully I can be concise, but let's see.

There are two different persectives on the world that I see people grappling with regularly. Let's 'characturize' them as "Heads" and "Tails" to remove any preconditioned linguistic biases:

"Heads" is the perspective of a mind which holds a model of the world in which they imagine that they can fast-forward through time and fly through space. They look at the world and say "I've extrapolated outward. I've imagined what will happen to my body when I die, and what will happen to the world when it dies, and to the sun when it dies, etc. And I see that being a scattering of unobserved molecules in the tiniest region of space for a mere instant is not much of anything. Life, as far as I can tell, is objectively meaningless."

For some people, this realization leads to confusion, if not outright existential crisis. But we can look at it and wonder why it has any credence? What's wrong with it?

1. You can't actually fly through space and time. You're extrapolating, and even if those extrapolations are true, they do not stop being extrapolations. (Some take this "who really knows?" hopeful thought and pronounce the invalidity of exptrapolation instead. I think this is shallow, but it does evade the crisis.)

2. No meaning is "objective". Life isn't objective, and it can't be "objectively" meaningless. It's subjectively meaningful, and who cares about objectivity anyway?

Point 2 can lead us to the "Tails" perspective: "I've looked at the world and seen hypocrisy and the relativism of meaning. I've imagined what is good and been told it is bad and that what is bad is good. There is no good or bad, only winners and losers. History is written by the victors. Life is meaningful, but it doesn't have the same meaning for everyone. And your meaning means nothing to me."

Both of these perspectives are self-contradictory in the same way: they fail to reconcile the objectivity of reality with the subjectivity of experience.

Heads declares that life is objectively meaningless, and procedes to improperly internalize this realization: Heads is not an objective being, so why would they think they can hold objective meanings in their head? They can't! Heads subjectively experiences the meaningless life, but declares it to be an objective truth.

Tails declares that reality itself is subjective, because all meaning is subjective. But they have trouble accounting for the selection processes -- if history is written by the victor, who chooses the victor? Victors can't choose themselves, or we'd all be victors. They can't be destined or selected by a higher being or purpose, because that would imply an objective reality.

So what's the deal? Meaning is always subjective and meaningful. "Bare" reality is always objective and meaningless. "True" reality is both at once, and we can look at things as being comprised of either as we wish. I can look at you and see a pile of pointless molecules, or I can look at you and see an intricate reflective signal which communicates something significant only to me. I know I can do these things, regardless of what the implications of that are (which I won't speak to.)

Why should you care about future people? Future people are just an extrapolation in your brain. They don't actually exist, so what good is valuing them? Well... you're a future person. Or you once were. (But that's as much an extrapolation.) But what are you now? Still nothing but an extrapolation. Your identity is a mental model. You have to decide why you care about one extrapolation over another. Why does one ghost matter more than another?

Personally, the ghosts that are realist to me are the ones that we both see. And I see future people, and I hope you see them too. And I hope you want to be one of them as much as I do.

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