US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data • Hacker News Board

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#21

Post by RubenSandwich » Wed, May 16, 2018, 1:08 PM UTC

stevehawk wrote: post #12

RubenSandwich wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the American mythology is that government involvement is always bad. It's hard for me to know if this developed because of the myths of the America Revolution, that a small colony won it alone and not because of external factors, and how much is due to people preaching small government politics. Regardless a distrust of the government seems to be ingrained in the American psyche IMO.

Ahaha what? There's no myth that we won it alone. Elementary school texts on the subject lay it out fairly clearly that we did it with the French.

They may talk slightly about the French help but none talk about The Spanish[1] also England was having trouble recruiting for the unpopular war so much so that about ~1/3 of the British fighting forces were mercenaries[2]. The Revolutionary war was won basically because the British Empire was starting to show it's cracks and other countries jumped at the chance to speed up it's demise.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_and_the_American_Revolut... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War#Rec...

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#22

Post by izacus » Wed, May 16, 2018, 1:09 PM UTC

stevehawk wrote: post #11

gpvos wrote: post #5

> the Electronic Communications Privacy Act only restricts telecom companies from disclosing data to the government. It doesn't restrict disclosure to other companies Clearly the US has their priorities completely the wrong way.

Why? Releasing the data to the government creates Big Brother. I thought we were all against that?

Now you've created a corporate Big Brother, who is hell bent on pure profits and doesn't even have to answer to you in the elections. Is that better?

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#23

Post by move-on-by » Wed, May 16, 2018, 1:11 PM UTC

random_moonwalk wrote: post #14

gpvos wrote: post #5

> the Electronic Communications Privacy Act only restricts telecom companies from disclosing data to the government. It doesn't restrict disclosure to other companies Clearly the US has their priorities completely the wrong way.

What would stop the government from just getting this stuff from a third-party who has purchased it?

Nothing, that's one reason why these companies exist. Its corporate surveillance

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#24

Post by itchyjunk » Wed, May 16, 2018, 1:12 PM UTC

tome wrote: post #15

random_moonwalk wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would stop the government from just getting this stuff from a third-party who has purchased it?

Probably the same above-named act.

But that act says it's telecoms that can't sell it to the government. Doesn't the government purchase data from other 3rd party entities anyways?

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#25

Post by kevcampb » Wed, May 16, 2018, 1:15 PM UTC

Carriers have been providing these services to 3rd party providers since at least 2006

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2006/feb/01/news.g2

A few points to note:

* Obtaining consent is entirely left to the provider to implement. It does not appear to have any auditing. A provider can query any number they like.

* The opt-in process used by many providers is easy to exploit, by spoofing SMS replies or abusing the SMS template so that the surveillance target does not get notified

* The providers have are well aware of the potential to exploit this and have been for some time. It has never been resolved in over 10 years.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#26

Post by einfach » Wed, May 16, 2018, 1:19 PM UTC

baxtr wrote: post #17

What if I as an European visit the states? Am I protected by through some agreements with my local provider or even GDPR?

Maybe [1]. I wouldn't count on being protected while outside the EU.

Art. 3 GDPR Territorial scope

Article 3(1) This Regulation applies to the processing of personal data of data subjects who are in the Union by a controller or processor not established in the Union, where the processing activities are related to:

Article 3(2)(a) - the offering of goods or services, irrespective of whether a payment of the data subject is required, to such data subjects in the Union; or Article 3(2)(b) - the monitoring of their behaviour as far as their behaviour takes place within the Union.

Article 3(3) This Regulation applies to the processing of personal data by a controller not established in the Union, but in a place where Member State law applies by virtue of public international law.

[1] https://gdpr-info.eu/art-3-gdpr/

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#27

Post by drderidder » Wed, May 16, 2018, 1:20 PM UTC

stevehawk wrote: post #11

gpvos wrote: post #5

> the Electronic Communications Privacy Act only restricts telecom companies from disclosing data to the government. It doesn't restrict disclosure to other companies Clearly the US has their priorities completely the wrong way.

Why? Releasing the data to the government creates Big Brother. I thought we were all against that?

Releasing the data to corporations creates a different Big Brother.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#28

Post by tinus_hn » Wed, May 16, 2018, 1:22 PM UTC

gpvos wrote: post #5

> the Electronic Communications Privacy Act only restricts telecom companies from disclosing data to the government. It doesn't restrict disclosure to other companies Clearly the US has their priorities completely the wrong way.

The clever part is that the government in turn is allowed to purchase data from the other companies.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#29

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, May 16, 2018, 1:24 PM UTC

stevehawk wrote: post #12

RubenSandwich wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the American mythology is that government involvement is always bad. It's hard for me to know if this developed because of the myths of the America Revolution, that a small colony won it alone and not because of external factors, and how much is due to people preaching small government politics. Regardless a distrust of the government seems to be ingrained in the American psyche IMO.

Ahaha what? There's no myth that we won it alone. Elementary school texts on the subject lay it out fairly clearly that we did it with the French.

> There's no myth that we won it alone.

Yes, there is.

> Elementary school texts on the subject lay it out fairly clearly that we did it with the French.

Textbooks are a mixed bag, but most I've seen at K-12 levels do mention that the French eventually were involved in some way, but very few give a real idea of the nature, extent (material or temporal), and criticality of French aid. E.g., approximately zero note that France started covertly arming and funding independence-minded Americans before the Declaration of Independence.

But even if the textbooks told the whole story, that wouldn't disprove the existence of a popular myth, it would just make it's persistence more remarkable.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#30

Post by gpvos » Wed, May 16, 2018, 1:26 PM UTC

stevehawk wrote: post #11

gpvos wrote: post #5

> the Electronic Communications Privacy Act only restricts telecom companies from disclosing data to the government. It doesn't restrict disclosure to other companies Clearly the US has their priorities completely the wrong way.

Why? Releasing the data to the government creates Big Brother. I thought we were all against that?

Well, such a release should of course be limited, regulated and with oversight. But I'd argue that at least police should have some possibility to get at customer data, even without opt-in.

Release of privacy-sensitive data to other companies should strictly be by clear customer opt-in, with clear limits on its use. And even some of that should be forbidden for semi-monopolies such as telecom providers.