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Why the Luddites Matter

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21–30 of 131 posts

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#21
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't even intrinsically dislike mechanisation. They just viewed machine sabotage as an effective tactic. The straw man of them being anti technology crusaders was entirely a stereotype created and perpetuated by capitalists.

The captialists had a very rational (if self-interested) reason to dislike the luddites. They just viewed straw men as an effective tactic.

>> rational

when it's about people, "rational" is the last thing we need. Empathy, sympathy, compassion is what you need.

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#22
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Across time the vast majority of crime seems to originate with hunger and other desperate situations.

As the saying goes: revolutions happen when the price of bread goes too high.

And something we witnessed during the Arab Spring.

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#23
post #7
post #4

> Frankly, the Luddites wanted to be able to feed their children, they didn’t want to be driven into poverty, and they thought those things were more important than the factory owners becoming wealthier and more powerful The effect of industrial revolution was not just factory owners being wealthier or more powerful. It raised the workers wages and increased living standards for everyone

Yes, but that is not something the Luddites could see from where they were standing and plenty of them did end up hungry. The problem with progress is that it does nothing whatsoever for those that are being displaced, and to tell them to 'have the long view' does not solve their immediate problems.

Humans just don't live long enough to benefit as a generation when it comes to this kind of rapid and radical progress, which is sad.

That said, I think the issue is largely one of mindset. Although we don't live very long, we are unusually adaptable, a feature which becomes lost in the comfort of an agreeable status quo. Unfortunately for the Luddites, it wasn't a feature that manifested again when that status quo was upended.

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#24
Try explaining to people that you’re a programmer who doesn’t own a cell phone, and count the seconds till this term gets raised. It’s disheartening to watch our society practically force others through attempted shaming to follow the acceptable path. I admit feebly that I bought a cell phone because the infotainment system in my car is garbage, and that seems to silence the worst of it, but I feel it’s going against my own values to even bring up that glorified internet radio as roughly equivalent to their pocket leash just so I don’t have to defend my pride yet again.

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#26
post #12
post #4

> Frankly, the Luddites wanted to be able to feed their children, they didn’t want to be driven into poverty, and they thought those things were more important than the factory owners becoming wealthier and more powerful The effect of industrial revolution was not just factory owners being wealthier or more powerful. It raised the workers wages and increased living standards for everyone

It raised the workers wages and increased living standards for everyone Right, but the pitch goes something like this: "sometime after you and your family have starved to death, people you've never met will enjoy increased living standards, and they won't even remember you or your sacrifice, pretty neat huh?". Not very compelling, is it? Would you take that deal? Something like it is being offered to Workers in the t…

And it's far from the only such industry. We need something like universal basic income, or one of two alternatives will happen: most people will suffer in droves, or they'll break out the metaphorical guillotine of our times.

The people at the top of the economic foodchain are usually for too short-sighted to consider what will happen then.

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#27

Try explaining to people that you’re a programmer who doesn’t own a cell phone, and count the seconds till this term gets raised. It’s disheartening to watch our society practically force others through attempted shaming to follow the acceptable path. I admit feebly that I bought a cell phone because the infotainment system in my car is garbage, and that seems to silence the worst of it, but I feel it’s going against…

Have you written about your motivations or experience without a cell phone?

I've been considering getting rid of mine (and a local friend switched to a dumb phone[0]) but RMS is the first person that comes to mind when I think of a programmer without a cell phone.

[0]: http://jordancrane.me/2018/04/16/the-dumbphone-chronicles/

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#28
post #12
post #4

> Frankly, the Luddites wanted to be able to feed their children, they didn’t want to be driven into poverty, and they thought those things were more important than the factory owners becoming wealthier and more powerful The effect of industrial revolution was not just factory owners being wealthier or more powerful. It raised the workers wages and increased living standards for everyone

It raised the workers wages and increased living standards for everyone Right, but the pitch goes something like this: "sometime after you and your family have starved to death, people you've never met will enjoy increased living standards, and they won't even remember you or your sacrifice, pretty neat huh?". Not very compelling, is it? Would you take that deal? Something like it is being offered to Workers in the t…

Our current working environment is quite different now though, for the Luddites the only major employers in the area would have been the factories, and mobility just wasn’t there (you had to live within walking distance of your employer for obvious reasons). A trucker can find another job, and it’s not like we are going to remove truckers overnight, if ever, self driving cars are always a couple of years away and there will be major regulatory and employment hurdles to overcome before those jobs are taken out. It’s not comparable to dropping a new machine into a factory.

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#29
post #21
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The captialists had a very rational (if self-interested) reason to dislike the luddites. They just viewed straw men as an effective tactic.

>> rational when it's about people, "rational" is the last thing we need. Empathy, sympathy, compassion is what you need.

Compassion and sympathy without reason just lead to activities that don't help those who are supposed to be helped, and may even harm them.

Reason is not incompatible with compassion.

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#30
The author perceives an unjust smear against historical Luddites, and protests the way that this cuts off critical thinking about the issue of technology in our lives. They highlight that historical Luddites had noble and relatable motives, like wanting better wages to feed their families. They entreat us to think with nuance on the issue. A good and fair point.

But then, just paragraphs later, the same author casually throws out two of the most charged smears in modern discourse: "In the midst of recent years that have shown the sorts of racist and misogynistic biases that are often endemic in the tech world...". There is no explanation or justification of what is meant by this. There is certainly no nuance.

This seems endemic to modern discourse. We want a fair hearing of our own beliefs. We feel persecuted when others smear us. But we see no problem tossing around harsh judgments of others, with no nuance or recognition of other people's potentially noble goals.

I wonder if this author would be willing to give a fair and nuanced hearing towards people who are conservative on immigration (for example). Worry about immigrants taking jobs is one of the top reasons people give for opposing immigration. So the original Luddites and people who are conservative on immigration have something in common.

I think this paragraph from the article takes on new meaning if you substitute "immigration" and "xenophobia" for "technology" and "technophobia". I wonder if the author would still support the argument:

> And I must report that it seems quite obvious that terms like “anti-technology” and even “technophobia” are just signs of lazy thinking, they say far more about the person using those terms than the people being accused of being “anti-technology.” In the vast majority of cases when you actually consider what these so-called “anti-technology” folks believe you realize that they don’t oppose “all” technology but (brace yourself) particular technologies, being used in particular ways, in a particular context. This is not to pretend that genuinely “extreme” cases don’t exist, but to claim that someone who thinks Facebook has become too big wants us all to go back to living in the woods is patently absurd. Yet it is the type of absurdity that becomes common in a society that has lost the ability to think critically about technology.

My goal overall isn't to shame the author though. I want to argue that we should apply this charity towards everyone making arguments, not just the people who align with us.

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