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Genetics and Eugenics in Frank Herbert's DUNE

gwern.net

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Re: Genetics and Eugenics in Frank Herbert's DUNE

#21

Post by drewbuschhorn »

gwern wrote: post #3
HelloNurse wrote: post #2

Very interesting, but fantastic genetic traits like precognition and ancestral memories are (in fiction) a traditional good fit for the Mendelian inheritance pattern of few and high impact mutations.

I've idly wondered how you could interpret all the mutations in X-Men, but I don't know enough about the families or inheritance to make any reasonable guesses (I've seen a few cartoons and movies and that's about it). I know mutants generally have mutant kids but don't the powers differ? Which doesn't make much sense and I can't retcon it. I have noticed, however, that in _My Little Pony_ (which I've finally gotten…

I feel stupid saying this, but it was explained to me as being like light through a filter, like for spider man, Parker was always going to get powers (all things being equal) but because the trigger was spider related the powers \ way he manifests them are "spider colored", like light through a keyhole, different keyhole, different image, but same light source.

With regard to the X-Men, I think they imply the "present day" is a Cambrian explosion, that then settles down in the far future into the most useful powers becoming common if less godlike levels: immortality, psi, telekinesis, and any other boring wish fulfillment.

Re: Genetics and Eugenics in Frank Herbert's DUNE

#22

Post by pmwhite »

otakucode wrote: post #20
badloginagain wrote: post #7

I always assumed that the BG were directing genetic averages across whole populations, and/or had such a deep understanding of genetics that they could predict the exact result of two peoples genes mixing. If you could determine with 99% accuracy the exact genome of a child by their parents genomes alone, would you be able to optimize humans across given a relatively small set?

No. Not even with that degree of knowledge could one effectively engineer towards a goal. Or, rather, one could engineer towards a goal but only by either accepting or ignoring profound weaknesses and drawbacks. Look at something like Golden Retrievers, for example. They were effectively developed into a distinct breed... and suffer tremendous health complications from it. It's not a matter of the breeders slipping u…

It is a little handwavy, but perhaps the BG worked for generations to achieve key areas of hybrid superiority by honing pure breeding lines in these two families? Does not seem to be what the BG are doing, though.

Furthermore, one can now ask if the more perfect specimen for a given environment might be a chimera: this genome for nervous system, that genome for leg muscles, this other genome for internal organs, etc.

But your main point stands. The Dune series presumes that such a thing as breeding a superior human is not very difficult to manage on the scale of mere centuries. I am not sure how even define such a thing. And I rather doubt such a specimen would breed true with a similarly superior specimen.

Re: Genetics and Eugenics in Frank Herbert's DUNE

#23

Post by lnanek2 »

The author claims 20 generations would be enough to breed the powers shown and thousands is unrealistic: " even the most pessimistic estimates of how many generations it might take to drastically increase average human intelligence or almost entirely eliminate a nasty recessive by R.A. Fisher might be 20 generations . "

But some of the powers, like remembering ancestors memories barely even exist in humans today. The field of epigenetics has proven that a starving parent can alter how the genetics of even grandchildren express themselves. So some basic functions like wrapping DNA tighter or loser and adding a methyl chemical group exist to pass information across generations, but this is like an extra bit or two per gene. To extend the functionality to the level of recording memories would take almost as long as it took for DNA to become as fancy as it did from the original RNA molecules that could produce more of themselves without any enzymes or DNA having developed yet. So almost as long again as life itself has taken, not 20 years.

Re: Genetics and Eugenics in Frank Herbert's DUNE

#24

Post by gwern »

lnanek2 wrote: post #23

The author claims 20 generations would be enough to breed the powers shown and thousands is unrealistic: " even the most pessimistic estimates of how many generations it might take to drastically increase average human intelligence or almost entirely eliminate a nasty recessive by R.A. Fisher might be 20 generations . " But some of the powers, like remembering ancestors memories barely even exist in humans today. The…

> But some of the powers, like remembering ancestors memories barely even exist in humans today.

That would be a valid point... except why are they still breeding for things like intelligence? That was my point. Thousands of generations later, they're still breeding for basic stuff like enhanced intelligence, which makes little sense under pretty much everything we know about intelligence's genetics.

> The field of epigenetics has proven that a starving parent can alter how the genetics of even grandchildren express themselves.

The extent to which transgenerational heritable epigenetics matters in humans has been wildly exaggerated by the media and the field is rife with overinterpretations, small samples, and non-replication.

Not to mention, even that hype didn't exist when Herbert was writing it, so he couldn't've been thinking of it. I am fairly sure he was gesturing towards a more Akashi-Records-style psi mechanism with access granted by ancestry, not actual encoding of memories into spare DNA (which among other things would mean no ancestor would remember anything after having a kid).

> To extend the functionality to the level of recording memories would take almost as long as it took for DNA to become as fancy as it did from the original RNA molecules that could produce more of themselves without any enzymes or DNA having developed yet.

Neurons already re-edit and splice their chromosomal DNA, so the mechanisms are already there for at least part of it.

Re: Genetics and Eugenics in Frank Herbert's DUNE

#25

Post by gcb0 »

downer56 wrote: post #8

This is the best write-up of Dune that I’ve ever read. Some of gwern’s stuff is kind of overcooked to a fault, and with intense focus, misses the broader prevailing drift of the topic at hand, but gwern’s got me on this one. It’s a good read.

thought genetics and the BG religion is more a deus exmachine than the main plot.

the main plot is an alegory of all the wars USA entered so oil prices remained under control.

the oil must flow.

Re: Genetics and Eugenics in Frank Herbert's DUNE

#26

Post by ry_ry »

pmoriarty wrote: post #18
madengr wrote: post #17

Had to stop reading due to spoilers. Currently on Children of Dune. Alternating between that series and Asimov.

Children of Dune and Dune Messiah are, imo, the weakest of Frank Herbert's Dune series. Persevere through those and you'll be rewarded in his later books.

It probably doesn't bear repeating at this point, but Brian Herbert's dreary offerings are pretty dismal and should be avoided by all but the most ardent Dune aficionados jonesing for a spice-fix and/or sci-fi masochists hoping to negate any enjoyment they derived from the Herbert novels.

Full disclosure: I didn't enjoy the Brian Herbert stuff.

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