Cells Talk in a Language That Looks Like Viruses • Hacker News Board

Re: Cells Talk in a Language That Looks Like Viruses

#21

Post by teaspoons » Sun, May 06, 2018, 5:25 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #16

teaspoons wrote: post #2

The idea that viruses are self-contained entities separate from the organisms they infect is an artifact of the human mind's power-saving system of modelling the world in terms of functional-decomposition. Viruses are non-living extraorganism messages crucial as a source of novelty in evolution. Nevertheless, it would be nice to find cures for them.

It's not an artifact of the human mind. Organism's genes (and phenotype) that is transmitted sexually are easy to separate from viruses and bacteria. Of course there is some mixing, like retroviruses, but the distinction is not artificial.

viruses transmitted within species could be viewed as part of their host's genotype, regardless of whether their genomes are incorporated into the germ-line. When you catch a cold for instance, you have particles of another human's body inside you replicating

Re: Cells Talk in a Language That Looks Like Viruses

#22

Post by random314 » Sun, May 06, 2018, 5:41 PM UTC

TheRealPomax wrote: post #3

The statement "There are fundamental differences between viruses and vesicles: Viruses can replicate and vesicles cannot" seems either paraphrased or dumbed down. Viruses can be replicated by cells, but they certainly cannot themselves replicate. And it's literally that kind of nitpicking that keeps science on track.

> And it's literally that kind of nitpicking that keeps science on track.

I don't want to be nitpicking, but can you provide citations? How has nitpicking on popular science articles kept science on track?

Re: Cells Talk in a Language That Looks Like Viruses

#23

Post by carapace » Sun, May 06, 2018, 6:07 PM UTC

I strongly recommend "A Planet of Viruses" by Carl Zimmer

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/P/bo222...

There are viruses that enter a host, merge with its DNA, replicate along with it for generations just like "normal" DNA. Eventually, it can "wake up", cut itself out of the host genes, and start replicating as a virus again.

Some of our DNA is apparently made out of viruses that did this and got stuck.

The model that emerges from consideration of recent discoveries is something like, bacteria and viruses form a single global organism that is the primary resident of this planet (by mass, by throughput, etc.)

Re: Cells Talk in a Language That Looks Like Viruses

#24

Post by daveguy » Sun, May 06, 2018, 6:15 PM UTC

random314 wrote: post #22

TheRealPomax wrote: post #3

The statement "There are fundamental differences between viruses and vesicles: Viruses can replicate and vesicles cannot" seems either paraphrased or dumbed down. Viruses can be replicated by cells, but they certainly cannot themselves replicate. And it's literally that kind of nitpicking that keeps science on track.

> And it's literally that kind of nitpicking that keeps science on track. I don't want to be nitpicking, but can you provide citations? How has nitpicking on popular science articles kept science on track?

Well, nitpicking on journal articles is how we do peer review. I'm not sure that needs a reference.

Re: Cells Talk in a Language That Looks Like Viruses

#25

Post by random314 » Sun, May 06, 2018, 6:35 PM UTC

daveguy wrote: post #24

random314 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And it's literally that kind of nitpicking that keeps science on track. I don't want to be nitpicking, but can you provide citations? How has nitpicking on popular science articles kept science on track?

Well, nitpicking on journal articles is how we do peer review. I'm not sure that needs a reference.

This is a popular science article, not a journal publication. This is also the first time I have heard of the peer review process being described as "nitpicking". Is this a new thing? Kind of hilarious! I want citations!

Re: Cells Talk in a Language That Looks Like Viruses

#26

Post by pishpash » Sun, May 06, 2018, 6:59 PM UTC

mannykannot wrote: post #7

TheRealPomax wrote: post #3

The statement "There are fundamental differences between viruses and vesicles: Viruses can replicate and vesicles cannot" seems either paraphrased or dumbed down. Viruses can be replicated by cells, but they certainly cannot themselves replicate. And it's literally that kind of nitpicking that keeps science on track.

The distinction, I think, is the matter of where the genome resides. Viruses have their own genome; they need to hijack the mechanisms of cells to reproduce, but it is their genome that is being replicated and disseminated. For a vesicle, however, it seems that the genetic instructions for creating them are part of the cell's genome, and those instructions do not get copied into the vesicle (at least, not in a form t…

There is a theory called viral eukaryogenesis and it's very much linked to meiosis.

Re: Cells Talk in a Language That Looks Like Viruses

#27

Post by derefr » Sun, May 06, 2018, 7:27 PM UTC

noonespecial wrote: post #8

stephengillie wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's as though the vesicles are email, and viruses are spam. Previously on HN: 800 million viruses fall onto every square meter of Earth every day. They kill 20% of bacterial life every day. [0] Video simulation of HIV infecting a cell and reproducing. [1] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16839636 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16982396

Worse than spam. They're like that chain email all your relatives kept forwarding you about Bill Gates giving you a trip to Disney World if you sent it on to 10 other people.

Viruses are memes. Something that a cell hears, and then can't stop repeating.

Re: Cells Talk in a Language That Looks Like Viruses

#28

Post by whataretensors » Sun, May 06, 2018, 7:42 PM UTC

> More recently, however, scientists discovered that cells could package their molecular information in what are known as extracellular vesicles.

Seems like cells then need some type message-response mechanism. It could be that there's an incidental minmax game happening at a cellular level, leading to types of intelligence that we don't understand at all but maybe can be modeled.

I think this creates incredible disruption opportunities for drugs and healthcare if AI can augment the intelligence of a cell in the long term.

Re: Cells Talk in a Language That Looks Like Viruses

#29

Post by ethn » Sun, May 06, 2018, 7:58 PM UTC

neilk wrote: post #10

I’m no biologist but this seems to blow a lot of things wide open. Since these vesicles resemble viruses, is it possible for them to be a form of organism-to-organism communication? Accidental, or intentional? Might there be pathogens that MITM vesicles en route? Rip them open and plant another message inside, and send them along?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiogenesis

One of the most important scarcely explored phenomena.

Re: Cells Talk in a Language That Looks Like Viruses

#30

Post by ajuc » Sun, May 06, 2018, 9:58 PM UTC

derefr wrote: post #27

noonespecial wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse than spam. They're like that chain email all your relatives kept forwarding you about Bill Gates giving you a trip to Disney World if you sent it on to 10 other people.

Viruses are memes. Something that a cell hears, and then can't stop repeating.

If the messages between cells are e-mail, then viruses are computer viruses. The analogy is almost perfect - it's information that uses security holes to cause the host to produce and send copies of it.