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I am leaving llvm

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Re: I am leaving llvm

#21

Post by mcintyre1994 »

malvosenior wrote: post #14
jakobegger wrote: post #12

Here’s something I don’t understand. If all you want is to contribute code, why not do that? How does it harm you if someone tries to increase diversity? LLVM is a big project; there’s surely enough space for different people. Some people will focus on the technical bits; others will focus on legal issues, and others can focus on social issues. What’s the problem with that? Why do so many people become defensive when…

As per his message, it wasn't just the code of conduct. It was also their partnership with Outreachy which he sees as a sexist and racist organization. He doesn't want to contribute code to a project he sees furthering those goals, sounds fair enough. As far as objecting to CoCs, a lot of people don't like them because they've historically opened the door to non-developers coming in an usurping actual contributing de…

That would indeed be objectionable! For someone unfamiliar with that history, can you give a few projects I should read up on to find out more?

Re: I am leaving llvm

#22

Post by jlebar »

shifter wrote: post #10

Gotta love how clattner shuts down the thread. He's a nice guy but he does have a strong authoritarian side that gets triggered by the typical SJW causes (even in small talk about silly things).

Is this the email in question?

http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2018-May/122934.htm...

Are you saying this is authoritarian and indicative of his being triggered, or are you saying that this sort of fits in with a mental model of him you've developed based on other experiences?

Re: I am leaving llvm

#23

Post by malvosenior »

mcintyre1994 wrote: post #21
malvosenior wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As per his message, it wasn't just the code of conduct. It was also their partnership with Outreachy which he sees as a sexist and racist organization. He doesn't want to contribute code to a project he sees furthering those goals, sounds fair enough. As far as objecting to CoCs, a lot of people don't like them because they've historically opened the door to non-developers coming in an usurping actual contributing de…

That would indeed be objectionable! For someone unfamiliar with that history, can you give a few projects I should read up on to find out more?

Yes, you should read up on the Contributor Covenant. The creator of which is notorious for aggressively pushing to get the CoC included into projects and then harassing developers. Here's one of the more famous examples:

https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941

Also see how the creator tried to force this CoC into Ruby:

https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/12004

Re: I am leaving llvm

#24

Post by rhapsodic »

amyjess wrote: post #15

He gives this as his reason for leaving: > Since agreement [to the code of conduct] is required to take part in the conferences, I am no longer able to attend. For reference, this is LLVM's code of conduct: https://llvm.org/docs/CodeOfConduct.html If somebody finds any of the below to be objectionable and refuses to abide by it, I would not be comfortable attending a conference with that person or being forced to int…

>If somebody finds any of the below to be objectionable and refuses to abide by it, I would not be comfortable attending a conference with that person or being forced to interact them for e.g. code review purposes.

Not me. I would perfectly comfortable interacting with such a person, because I'm a mature, professional adult who is not a fragile child that needs to be treated like a kindergartner. I will go out of my to not work with the adult babies who think the world should revolve around them, and have to politicize every aspect of life.

This part is meaningless:

> Posting sexually explicit or violent material.

because virtually everyone would agree that's not appropriate. You don't need a CoC for that. The entire purpose of these CoC's is to get people to do this:

> Be careful in the words that you choose

IOW, say something we don't like, and you're gone.

Re: I am leaving llvm

#25

Post by jlebar »

GiorgioG wrote: post #6

These social justice warriors may seem well-meaning, but ultimately they are parasites. Their mission is never-ending and ultimately they overreach and this is the result. I just want to work with smart people. I don't care what gender they associate themselves with, what color they are, whether there's an equal distribution of any of these characteristics in my department. I just want to do my job and learn from sma…

It sounds like you're angry because you want the autonomy to choose not to think about social justice issues (at least at work), and you feel like that choice is being taken away from you by people who enact things like codes of conduct. Now it's institutionally everyone's responsibility to think about these things, so if I want to be part of this institution, I no longer have this choice.

Is that right?

What do you think about people who say, I'm a woman, and/or I'm black, and/or I'm gay, and/or I'm trans, and/or I'm disabled, and/or I have a mental illness. I also just want to sit heads-down and code next to you and not think about what I "am", but unfortunately -- perhaps, invisibly to you -- people are doing things which prevent me from being able to do that. A code of conduct moves us a bit closer towards "equality of having to think about social justice", in that I have to think about it a bit less, in exchange for your thinking about it a bit more.

Re: I am leaving llvm

#26

Post by badsectoracula »

chickenfries wrote: post #9
rhapsodic wrote: post #3

The community change I cannot take is how the social injustice movement has permeated it. When I joined llvm no one asked or cared about my religion or political view. We all seemed committed to just writing a good compiler framework. This makes me sad.

This comment made me think that someone had disparaged them for their political beliefs or religion, but after reading that doesn't seem to have happened, unless they left it out for some reason, but that would be odd. In fact, if I understand the letter correctly, the straw that broke OP's back was this: > https://www.outreachy.org/apply/eligibility/ To which I say... really? Ok, that's too bad that you don't want t…

I do not know how that looks to other people but to me these rules look both sexist and racist.

Re: I am leaving llvm

#27

Post by AdamM12 »

malvosenior wrote: post #23
mcintyre1994 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would indeed be objectionable! For someone unfamiliar with that history, can you give a few projects I should read up on to find out more?

Yes, you should read up on the Contributor Covenant. The creator of which is notorious for aggressively pushing to get the CoC included into projects and then harassing developers. Here's one of the more famous examples: https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 Also see how the creator tried to force this CoC into Ruby: https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/12004

Didn't these people also get upset over some projects documentation using "he"? I remember seeing a massive thread about the Issue requesting gender neutral language and the maintainer spiked it. On another note it sure seems like CoC are often weaponized by people who engage in wrong think.

edit: found link -> https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015

Re: I am leaving llvm

#28

Post by rhapsodic »

jlebar wrote: post #25
GiorgioG wrote: post #6

These social justice warriors may seem well-meaning, but ultimately they are parasites. Their mission is never-ending and ultimately they overreach and this is the result. I just want to work with smart people. I don't care what gender they associate themselves with, what color they are, whether there's an equal distribution of any of these characteristics in my department. I just want to do my job and learn from sma…

It sounds like you're angry because you want the autonomy to choose not to think about social justice issues (at least at work), and you feel like that choice is being taken away from you by people who enact things like codes of conduct. Now it's institutionally everyone's responsibility to think about these things, so if I want to be part of this institution, I no longer have this choice. Is that right? What do you…

>What do you think about people who say, I'm a woman, and/or I'm black, and/or I'm gay, and/or I'm trans, and/or I'm disabled, and/or I have a mental illness. I also just want to sit heads-down and code next to you and not think about what I "am", but unfortunately -- perhaps, invisibly to you -- people are doing things which prevent me from being able to do that. A code of conduct moves us a bit closer towards "equality of having to think about social justice", in that I have to think about it a bit less, in exchange for your thinking about it a bit more.

What do I think about those people? I think they're insufferably bossy people who insult me by telling me what I need to think about more.

Re: I am leaving llvm

#29

Post by hojjat12000 »

rhapsodic wrote: post #24
amyjess wrote: post #15

He gives this as his reason for leaving: > Since agreement [to the code of conduct] is required to take part in the conferences, I am no longer able to attend. For reference, this is LLVM's code of conduct: https://llvm.org/docs/CodeOfConduct.html If somebody finds any of the below to be objectionable and refuses to abide by it, I would not be comfortable attending a conference with that person or being forced to int…

>If somebody finds any of the below to be objectionable and refuses to abide by it, I would not be comfortable attending a conference with that person or being forced to interact them for e.g. code review purposes. Not me. I would perfectly comfortable interacting with such a person, because I'm a mature, professional adult who is not a fragile child that needs to be treated like a kindergartner. I will go out of my…

> I will go out of my to not work with the adult babies who think the world should revolve around them, and have to politicize every aspect of life.

Not me. I would be perfectly comfortable interacting with such a person because I'm a mature, professional adult who is not a fragile child that needs to be treated like a kindergartner!

Re: I am leaving llvm

#30

Post by felipellrocha »

morvita wrote: post #16
GiorgioG wrote: post #6

These social justice warriors may seem well-meaning, but ultimately they are parasites. Their mission is never-ending and ultimately they overreach and this is the result. I just want to work with smart people. I don't care what gender they associate themselves with, what color they are, whether there's an equal distribution of any of these characteristics in my department. I just want to do my job and learn from sma…

I, too, dream of a world where I can work with smart people without regard to their race, sexuality, gender, whatever, but it is naive to think that we are already living in that world. Like it or not, the entire system is stacked against minorities in ways that aren't even obvious or noticeable from a position of privilege. I work as an engineer in an office of 120 people in the East Bay. There are three black peopl…

This. The point of these policies is that we might be missing some fucking amazing talent and not know just because of historical reasons.
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