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Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

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Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#21

Post by icebraining »

Karlozkiller wrote: post #19
notahacker wrote: post #5

15 months sounds excessive, but the fact the software could be downloaded by customers for free is not a mitigating factor in a guy attempting to make a profit making it look as much as possible like a paid for product sold by Dell/Microsoft...

> 15 months sounds excessive, but the fact the software could be downloaded by customers for free is not a mitigating factor in a guy attempting to make a profit making it look as much as possible like a paid for product sold by Dell/Microsoft... I don't know if I would call it 'trying to make profit' when you make CDs in China, ship them to US and sell the CDs for 25 cent a piece. According to himself he made no mon…

In the emails, he writes "This will ensure a steady income for the next year to come!"

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#22

Post by skate22 »

kelnos wrote: post #10
skate22 wrote: post #3

Title is missleading: "His actual crime, which he pleaded guilty to, was counterfeiting the packaging to make the discs pass for Dell-branded ones." He misled his customers in order to make money. This isnt really different than selling knock off gucci handbags. Sure they probably work & look the same, but it does damage to the legitimate brand.

Counterfeit handbags damage the brand either by being made of poor quality materials, or by just being sold cheaply, which undercuts the brand's ability to charge a premium. (Not making a value judgment of these practices; just it is what it is.) Neither of those things is the case here. The discs are near-identical in quality to the discs Dell would have furnished, and (as far as I can tell), Dell essentially gives…

Imagine the following scenario:

One of his discs is corrupted and causes serious issues for the customer. That customer is so put off from the experience that they vow to never buy dell again.

For dell to take that risk is fair. For this individual to take that risk for dell is not fair.

Dell also likely does more QA on what they ship than the one individual.

Also, people trust in the brand name in part because of what the brand name has at stake to lose.

Lying to the technically unsophosticated as you put it should be no small offense.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#23

Post by larntz »

nailer wrote: post #8

The other side of the case, which contains a lot of detail not mentioned here: https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-fac...

That definitely paints a different picture of the situation.

> Evidence submitted to the court shows that one transaction alone generated $28,000 in revenue for Mr. Lundgren and his co-defendant from the sale of 8,000 counterfeit software discs.

That's quite a bit more than 25 cents per disc.

Should Microsoft charge $25 for a disc and license to run windows on a refurbished, maybe not. But, I have a hard time believing that anyone could attempt to build a legitimate business based like the one described in this case and not expect some kind of legal repercussions.

> Sentencing guidelines for Mr. Lundgren were calculated at 37 to 46 months, according to federal sentencing rules, and the judge in this case issued a below-guidelines sentence of 15 months

I'm not sure how I feel about the prison sentence. I understand that to many people this feels like punishing someone that was trying to make the world a better place, but I can also see how this falls under the piracy / copyright infringement umbrella.

> Mr. Lundgren was even warned by a customs seizure notice that his conduct was illegal and given the opportunity to stop before he was prosecuted.

If this is true I have a hard time feeling bad for the guy. He should have consulted a lawyer at that point. At the least he was aware of the possible consequences.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#25

Post by sailingparrot »

mchannon wrote: post #7

So many in this case are missing the point. If Microsoft caught him violating their copyright, and it bothered Microsoft, Microsoft should have sued in civil court. That is the purpose of civil court- to penalize wrongdoing by companies. Happens all the time. But Microsoft was never going to recover anything in civil court. So Microsoft lied to the US government about the value of what was being "stolen", and got the…

> So Microsoft lied to the US government about the value of what was being "stolen", and got the US government to foot the bill of prosecuting the case.

Source for that?

Microsoft is clearly denying this, so who is right?:

> "Microsoft did not bring this case: U.S. Customs referred the case to federal prosecutors after intercepting shipments of counterfeit software imported from China by Mr. Lundgren."

and

> "Customs authorities referred the case to federal prosecutors. The United States Attorney’s Office in Miami pressed charges and Mr. Lundgren pleaded guilty. Microsoft was called as an expert witness toward the end of the legal proceedings. "

From: https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-fac...

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#26

Post by petee »

lolc wrote: post #16

The title on the original is "How Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away for free". Even that title is misleading, but the shortened title here is wrong because "Free Software" has a specific meaning. Referring to Microsoft Windows as "free software" is just wrong. Microsoft Windows is not Free Software. Even if you leave out the caps intending to refer to price only, the title is…

It's not windows that's 'free', it's the recovery disk, which Microsoft allows anyone to download and burn for free.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#28

Post by criddell »

Karlozkiller wrote: post #20
scandox wrote: post #6

Did he or did he not seek to make a meaningful profit from this activity? I can't see information on that in the article. Also did he use the downloadable file or did he actually burn from an existing DELL disc? I think there would be software differences potentially there right? I got a reinstallation media sent out from DELL and it definitely seemed customised.

According to what he says himself in an interview he was selling the CDs 25 cent a piece after paying for production in China and shipping to the US. I don't think you can get much meaningful profit from that.

It's been reported that he earned $28,000 from the transaction.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#29

Post by notahacker »

Karlozkiller wrote: post #19
notahacker wrote: post #5

15 months sounds excessive, but the fact the software could be downloaded by customers for free is not a mitigating factor in a guy attempting to make a profit making it look as much as possible like a paid for product sold by Dell/Microsoft...

> 15 months sounds excessive, but the fact the software could be downloaded by customers for free is not a mitigating factor in a guy attempting to make a profit making it look as much as possible like a paid for product sold by Dell/Microsoft... I don't know if I would call it 'trying to make profit' when you make CDs in China, ship them to US and sell the CDs for 25 cent a piece. According to himself he made no mon…

According to emails he wrote whilst not trying to defend a court case, it was very, very important to him the disks could not be distinguished from the real thing even though he knew these were far more risky to import than unprinted CDs, and very important to get as many sales as possible. Court submissions seem to indicate he had another line in Canon CDs which he was quite happy encouraging his partner to continue to sell for $30-40 a pop on eBay...

If you read the original court docs, Microsoft also claim the Dell disks normally supplied only to Dell customers allow Windows to be used without activating, and that an active secondary market exists for the real thing because of that.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#30

Post by letsgetphysITal »

skate22 wrote: post #3

Title is missleading: "His actual crime, which he pleaded guilty to, was counterfeiting the packaging to make the discs pass for Dell-branded ones." He misled his customers in order to make money. This isnt really different than selling knock off gucci handbags. Sure they probably work & look the same, but it does damage to the legitimate brand.

You misunderstand. He was convicted of copyright infringement for selling unlicensed copies of Windows. He didn't do this, as copies of Windows aren't sold; they're licensed. As the article states, he didn't sell licenses. He sold recovery media which is available for free from the Microsoft website, and from OEM suppliers.

He did admit to trademark infringement by reusing the protected Dell artwork on the disks, but he wasn't convicted of that. If he was, it would have been a slap on the wrist and a fine. This was unjust and totally unreasonable.

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