Live data from Hacker News

The Looming Battle Over AI Chips

barrons.com

21–30 of 89 posts

Re: The Looming Battle Over AI Chips

#21

Do people think that nobody at nVidia has ever heard of specialized deep learning processors? 1. Volta GPUs already have little matmul cores, basically a bunch of little TPUs. 2. The graphics dedicated silicon is an extremely tiny portion of the die, a trivial component (source: Bill Dally, nVidia chief scientist). 3. Memory access power and performance is the bottleneck (even in the TPU paper), and will only continu…

Never overestimate the intelligence of the decision makers at big bureaucratic tech companies. Also, it is not in the best interest of any of them to be reliant on NVDA or any other single vendor for any critical workload whatsoever. Doubly not so for NVDA's mostly closed source and haphazardly optimized libraries.

All that said, Bill Daly rocks, and NVDA is a hardened target. But the DL frameworks have enormous performance holes once one stops running Resnet-152 and other popular benchmark graphs in the same way that 3DMark performance is not necessarily representative of actual gaming performance unless NVDA took it upon themselves to make it so.

And since DL is such a dynamic field (just like game engines), I expect this situation to persist for a very, very long time.

Re: The Looming Battle Over AI Chips

#23

Do people think that nobody at nVidia has ever heard of specialized deep learning processors? 1. Volta GPUs already have little matmul cores, basically a bunch of little TPUs. 2. The graphics dedicated silicon is an extremely tiny portion of the die, a trivial component (source: Bill Dally, nVidia chief scientist). 3. Memory access power and performance is the bottleneck (even in the TPU paper), and will only continu…

Never overestimate the intelligence of the decision makers at big bureaucratic tech companies. Also, it is not in the best interest of any of them to be reliant on NVDA or any other single vendor for any critical workload whatsoever. Doubly not so for NVDA's mostly closed source and haphazardly optimized libraries. All that said, Bill Daly rocks, and NVDA is a hardened target. But the DL frameworks have enormous perf…

> Never overestimate the intelligence of the decision makers at big bureaucratic tech companies.

See Google and anything chat related after 2010

Re: The Looming Battle Over AI Chips

#24

Do people think that nobody at nVidia has ever heard of specialized deep learning processors? 1. Volta GPUs already have little matmul cores, basically a bunch of little TPUs. 2. The graphics dedicated silicon is an extremely tiny portion of the die, a trivial component (source: Bill Dally, nVidia chief scientist). 3. Memory access power and performance is the bottleneck (even in the TPU paper), and will only continu…

[deleted]

Re: The Looming Battle Over AI Chips

#25

Do people think that nobody at nVidia has ever heard of specialized deep learning processors? 1. Volta GPUs already have little matmul cores, basically a bunch of little TPUs. 2. The graphics dedicated silicon is an extremely tiny portion of the die, a trivial component (source: Bill Dally, nVidia chief scientist). 3. Memory access power and performance is the bottleneck (even in the TPU paper), and will only continu…

And Intel knew that mobile chips will one day become very popular, too - two decades ago. Much good did that knowledge do to the company.

It's not about them being ignorant about it. It's about them making decisions in spite of that knowledge - decisions that Make Sense™ for the advancement and increased profitability of the incumbent cash cow, but they are often contradictory or have a negative impact on new tech investment.

Here's one main reason why Nvidia will not go "full TPU" with its chips - it wants "scalability". That means it wants an architecture that can be "flexible and server different markets".

The companies that specialize in AI chips will likely beat them in performance because they only care about winning one market at a time (and the AI market is a pretty big one).

Intel's AI strategy is even more of a mess, because it has no clue what it can use to beat Nvdia, so its investments and developer ecosystems are all over the place.

Re: The Looming Battle Over AI Chips

#26

Do people think that nobody at nVidia has ever heard of specialized deep learning processors? 1. Volta GPUs already have little matmul cores, basically a bunch of little TPUs. 2. The graphics dedicated silicon is an extremely tiny portion of the die, a trivial component (source: Bill Dally, nVidia chief scientist). 3. Memory access power and performance is the bottleneck (even in the TPU paper), and will only continu…

There is the question of incentives though. The non-gpu companies want perfectly aligned performance that they can both built for and designate in advance. The gpu companies want to make said companies buy and rebuy as much as they can.

As the areas of expertise and manufacturing grow closer, the advantages of paying someone to do it for you decrease.

I know much too little to have an opinion on who is likely correct, but I can understand the two sides each having positions that don't assume the other side is an idiot.

Re: The Looming Battle Over AI Chips

#28

Nvidia will almost certainly respond to this challenge with it's own specialized machine learning and inference chips. It's probably what Google, Facebook and others hope. Forcing Nvidia to work harder is enough for them. Developing a new high performance microarchitecture for GPU or CPU is complex task. A new clean sheet design architecture takes 5-7 years even for teams that have been doing it constantly for decade…

Do not see why Google would care what Nvidia is doing? Why would they?

Re: The Looming Battle Over AI Chips

#29
The new Google Speech solution is the perfect example on why Google had to do their own silicon.

Doing speech with 16k samples a second through a NN and keep at a reasonable cost is really, really difficult.

The old way was far more power efficient and if you are going to use this new technique which gets you a far better result and do it at a reasonable cost you have to go all the way down into the silicon.

Here listen to the results.

https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2018/03/introducing-Clo...

Now I am curious on the cost difference Google as able to achieve. It is still going to be more then the old way but how close did Google come?

But my favorite new thing with these chips is the Jeff Dean paper.

https://www.arxiv-vanity.com/papers/1712.01208v1/

Can't wait to see the cost difference using Google TPUs and this technique versus traditional approaches.

Plus this approach support multi-core inherently. How would you ever do a tree search with multiple cores?

Ultimately to get the new applications we need Google and others doing the silicon. We are getting to extremes where the entire stack has to be tuned together.

I think Google vision for Lens is going to be a similar situation.

Re: The Looming Battle Over AI Chips

#30

Nvidia will almost certainly respond to this challenge with it's own specialized machine learning and inference chips. It's probably what Google, Facebook and others hope. Forcing Nvidia to work harder is enough for them. Developing a new high performance microarchitecture for GPU or CPU is complex task. A new clean sheet design architecture takes 5-7 years even for teams that have been doing it constantly for decade…

Do not see why Google would care what Nvidia is doing? Why would they?

If they do it better and cheaper they care
Post reply on HN