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NTSB ‘unhappy’ with Tesla release of investigative information in fatal crash

washingtonpost.com

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Re: NTSB ‘unhappy’ with Tesla release of investigative information in fatal crash

#21

Post by gsnedders »

Animats wrote: post #18
hirundo wrote: post #3

Funny, the article says several times that the NTSB is unhappy with Tesla's release of information, but it never says why. It's not clear how it can interfere with the investigation. Maybe they just want to control the narrative? But that is no part of their function. Sorry if you're unhappy about Tesla's disclosures guys, but why, and why should we care?

Because, if Tesla signed up as a "party" to assisting with the investigation, that puts them under certain nondisclosure rules.[1] At the end of the investigation all the info comes out, but not in the early stages. Selectively releasing information that makes some party look good is not allowed if you are involved with the investigation. This is widely understood in the aviation community. The mission of the NTSB is…

If they are a party to the investigation, ignoring the non-disclosure rules makes Tesla seem to me like a dodgy company willing to act against established norms designed to ensure transport safety, and I hope they get the book thrown at them for it.

If they are not a party to the investigation, I'd question why not. When was the last time an aircraft manufacturer declined to be a party to the investigation? They recognise that if they get a reputation for being unsafe that has repercussions for future sales; I'd hope the same was true of car manufacturers!

To me, there's literally no way this makes Tesla look good.

Re: NTSB ‘unhappy’ with Tesla release of investigative information in fatal crash

#22

Post by tedunangst »

aurizon wrote: post #7
masklinn wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it institutional secrecy or is it disapproval of unilateral disclosure of only a sub-set of elements of an ongoing inquest?

What has Tesla concealed - as you intimate? What does the NTSB know they are not telling? One hopes their report at the end will tell all.

I think the idea is we don't know what they're not telling us because they haven't told us what they're not telling us.

Re: NTSB ‘unhappy’ with Tesla release of investigative information in fatal crash

#23

Post by vilhelm_s »

hirundo wrote: post #3

Funny, the article says several times that the NTSB is unhappy with Tesla's release of information, but it never says why. It's not clear how it can interfere with the investigation. Maybe they just want to control the narrative? But that is no part of their function. Sorry if you're unhappy about Tesla's disclosures guys, but why, and why should we care?

I imagine maybe the NTSB feels that their neutral position is being undermined? NTSB gave Tesla the data recorder in order for them to help the investigation, but then Tesla took some of the data on it and used to make a press release to put some spin on the event---probably the NTSB feels they were played...

Re: NTSB ‘unhappy’ with Tesla release of investigative information in fatal crash

#24

Post by IBM »

I learned everything I needed to know about Tesla's culture and Elon Musk specifically after their response a few years ago to the NYT's review criticizing the Model S's cold weather performance. All their subsequent responses to criticism haven't changed my impression at all. 'Lying with statistics' is a go-to Tesla PR move.

Re: NTSB ‘unhappy’ with Tesla release of investigative information in fatal crash

#25

Post by fenwick67 »

United857 wrote: post #12

Given the fact that the autopilot warnings were ignored, could this possibly be a case of sudden driver incapacitation? Eg falling asleep at the wheel, a heart attack, etc?

The autopilot warnings happened earlier in the drive and aren't even relevant to the crash, they're Tesla's smokescreen.

(EDIT: This is why the NTSB is mad, Tesla is selectively releasing information like this, so they look good before the NTSB reaches any conclusion)

Re: NTSB ‘unhappy’ with Tesla release of investigative information in fatal crash

#26

Post by morsch »

denzil_correa wrote: post #15
wpietri wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Related, I wondered about this bit: "Tesla said Huang had not followed guidelines intended to ensure drivers are paying attention while the vehicle is in Autopilot mode." Even if the sensors were correct, I have deep questions about the human ability to follow instructions requiring them to be robot-like. I would love to see some studies measuring the extent to which people can really follow Tesla's guidelines to the…

I have just seen one study (not exhaustive) that goes into some details about Tesla autopilot [0] >Participants emphasized being alert at all times, paying attention to the road environment and keeping hands on the wheel while in autonomous driving mode. ... > Drivers seem to enjoy these technologies, and are aware of the limitations of Autopilot and Summon. In the comments, we observed that drivers were highly motiv…

It wasn't obvious to me from those quotes: this study is an analysis of an online survey the authors posted in Tesla forums and I suppose on Twitter. It's not based on anything like neutral observation of real behavior.

"We conducted an online survey with 162 Tesla Owners. The survey was distributed through online forums and social media during April-May 2016. The survey asked questions about drivers’ attitudes towards and experiences with two functionalities built into Tesla Model S cars: Autopilot and Summon. Questions covered frequency of use, satisfaction, ease of learning and knowledge related to Autopilot and Summon. Additionally, we asked participants to report unusual or unexpected behaviors they experienced while using these systems and what they consider a key aspect of safety. The average time to complete the survey was 9.6 minutes."

Re: NTSB ‘unhappy’ with Tesla release of investigative information in fatal crash

#27

Post by creato »

denzil_correa wrote: post #15
wpietri wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Related, I wondered about this bit: "Tesla said Huang had not followed guidelines intended to ensure drivers are paying attention while the vehicle is in Autopilot mode." Even if the sensors were correct, I have deep questions about the human ability to follow instructions requiring them to be robot-like. I would love to see some studies measuring the extent to which people can really follow Tesla's guidelines to the…

I have just seen one study (not exhaustive) that goes into some details about Tesla autopilot [0] >Participants emphasized being alert at all times, paying attention to the road environment and keeping hands on the wheel while in autonomous driving mode. ... > Drivers seem to enjoy these technologies, and are aware of the limitations of Autopilot and Summon. In the comments, we observed that drivers were highly motiv…

From the abstract alone (can't access the full paper), that study seems indistinguishable from a Tesla PR puff piece.

Re: NTSB ‘unhappy’ with Tesla release of investigative information in fatal crash

#28

Post by JshWright »

IBM wrote: post #24

I learned everything I needed to know about Tesla's culture and Elon Musk specifically after their response a few years ago to the NYT's review criticizing the Model S's cold weather performance. All their subsequent responses to criticism haven't changed my impression at all. 'Lying with statistics' is a go-to Tesla PR move.

Even more deviously, it's "lying with true statistics".

Re: NTSB ‘unhappy’ with Tesla release of investigative information in fatal crash

#30

Post by lafar6502 »

Both Uber and Tesla try to discredit the victim before any official investigation ends, and in both cases it’s quite clear they will try to cover their asses first. And they have all the data. How can we be sure they don’t selectively hide something or don’t tamper with the records before giving them to investigators?
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