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Patrick Collison AMA on r/neoliberal

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Re: Patrick Collison AMA on r/neoliberal

#21

Post by aaron-lebo »

lhnz wrote: post #6
gt_ wrote: post #3

Interesting to see individuals show pride in the “neoliberal” label, which is usually a stand-in for “complacent”.

That's not what it means here. The label was rehabilitated by Sam Bowman back in 2016: https://medium.com/@s8mb/im-a-neoliberal-maybe-you-are-too-b... Basically used here to describe a politics which is fond of market-based policies but supportive of redistribution when it is necessary for positive outcomes.

What's different about this from "Third Way" politics?

Clinton (Bill) was a Third Way neoliberal who basically believed what you and that blog post are saying. Clinton (Hillary) saw those policies defeated 2 years ago.

[S]omething different and distinct from liberal capitalism with its unswerving belief in the merits of the free market and democratic socialism with its demand management and obsession with the state. The Third Way is in favour of growth, entrepreneurship, enterprise and wealth creation but it is also in favour of greater social justice and it sees the state playing a major role in bringing this about. So in the words of... Anthony Giddens of the LSE the Third Way rejects top down socialism as it rejects traditional neo liberalism. — Report from the BBC, 1999,

It seems they are discovering a 30 year old term and blogging about it. What's been rehabilitated?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way

It's probably different in degrees, but let's be realistic, nothing has been rehabilitated nor is anything new being said.

Re: Patrick Collison AMA on r/neoliberal

#22

Post by lhnz »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #21
lhnz wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what it means here. The label was rehabilitated by Sam Bowman back in 2016: https://medium.com/@s8mb/im-a-neoliberal-maybe-you-are-too-b... Basically used here to describe a politics which is fond of market-based policies but supportive of redistribution when it is necessary for positive outcomes.

What's different about this from "Third Way" politics? Clinton (Bill) was a Third Way neoliberal who basically believed what you and that blog post are saying. Clinton (Hillary) saw those policies defeated 2 years ago. [S]omething different and distinct from liberal capitalism with its unswerving belief in the merits of the free market and democratic socialism with its demand management and obsession with the state.…

Who do you believe is rediscovering a 30 year old term here?

Have you heard of the Adam Smith Institute?

It is a neoliberal think-tank and over the years many of its policies have been adopted by the UK.

That blog post was written by the executive director.

> The inability to come up with a new interesting term (or acknowledge the history behind the existing term) doesn't portend great things.

Quoting your previous deleted post here.

Are you aware that the meanings they're assigning to the term, are actually in line with what was meant when it was first used at the Walter Lippmann Colloquium in 1938?

Re: Patrick Collison AMA on r/neoliberal

#23

Post by gt_ »

abiox wrote: post #16
adwhit wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very peculiar. Whether it is an attempt to "reclaim" the word or not, that subreddit's usage of "neoliberal" bears little relation it's usage as defined in books such as David Harvey's 'A Brief History of Neoliberalism', where it is most commonly associated with privatization, financialisation, tax cuts, the retrenchment of social welfare and rapid growth in inequality. Critically, the neoliberal state is not '…

perhaps i misunderstand, but these things you list seem to be compatible with libertarianism (at least the right-libertarianism most commonly encountered in the US) > privatization, financialisation, tax cuts, the retrenchment of social welfare

Neoliberals want to use the state as an enforcement vehicle for private interests, so neoliberalism leads to more corruption of the state while libertarianism seeks to abandon it.

Also, neoliberalism is much more crafty with propaganda, by necessity. Neoliberals use advertising and public relations to mask their alleged conflicting agendas.

For example, Trump is a neoliberal in libertarian clothing, while Clinton is a neoliberal in democrat clothing. They are both neoliberals. If they weren't, they would lack the cooperation from private interests needed to run.

Libertarians lack cooperation from the private sector because their public image is not "supportive, caring",

Democrats lack cooperation from the private sector because their actual political interests (like defending the working class) are in conflict with it.

So, neoliberalism makes the choice easy by combining the best of both worlds: dystopic support for corporate takeover AND the public image of loving kindness.

Re: Patrick Collison AMA on r/neoliberal

#24

Post by nostrademons »

aluhut wrote: post #14
lhnz wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what it means here. The label was rehabilitated by Sam Bowman back in 2016: https://medium.com/@s8mb/im-a-neoliberal-maybe-you-are-too-b... Basically used here to describe a politics which is fond of market-based policies but supportive of redistribution when it is necessary for positive outcomes.

Tough statement. I doubt you can rehabilitate a such negative term in not even 2 years.

In some circles it was never a negative term to begin with. In other circles it will remain a negative term forever, regardless of what you do.

One interesting consequence of the Internet is that we're becoming very aware that for every label you could ascribe to yourself, there is some group out there who holds a deep, visceral hate for that label, so deep that they wish you would just cease to exist. I guess this was probably the case beforehand, but without instantaneous global communication, you generally weren't aware of the people who hated you. I remember that when I was growing up, terms like "American", "patriotic", "tolerant", and "generous" were unambiguously good, but now for each of those there is some group who considers them a dog-whistle for people they despise.

Re: Patrick Collison AMA on r/neoliberal

#25

Post by aaron-lebo »

lhnz wrote: post #22
aaron-lebo wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's different about this from "Third Way" politics? Clinton (Bill) was a Third Way neoliberal who basically believed what you and that blog post are saying. Clinton (Hillary) saw those policies defeated 2 years ago. [S]omething different and distinct from liberal capitalism with its unswerving belief in the merits of the free market and democratic socialism with its demand management and obsession with the state.…

Who do you believe is rediscovering a 30 year old term here? Have you heard of the Adam Smith Institute? It is a neoliberal think-tank and over the years many of its policies have been adopted by the UK. That blog post was written by the executive director. > The inability to come up with a new interesting term (or acknowledge the history behind the existing term) doesn't portend great things. Quoting your previous d…

Who do you believe is discovering a 30 year old term here?

You claimed that that blog post "rehabilitates" the term. I'm saying that the general beliefs that the author describes are well-trod ground within neoliberalism. He's describing himself as a third way neoliberal with slightly more libertarian tendencies.

Have you heard of the Adam Smith Institute?

It is a neoliberal think-tank and over the years many of its policies have been adopted by the UK.

That blog post was written by the executive director.

It'd be more impressive without the credentials because it reads like a random blogger.

Are you aware that the meanings they're assigning to the term, is actually in line with what was meant when it was first used at the Walter Lippmann Colloquium in 1938?

His blog post mentioned rejecting dogmatism. Calling back to 1938 as the "real definition" is very dogmatic. Since then the 1980s through 2016 have happened in the US, all associated with neoliberalism.

Just saying, like the other post, that a blog post and a Reddit post with 120 upvotes hardly change the general meaning of a term.

Re: Patrick Collison AMA on r/neoliberal

#26

Post by asvabard100 »

lhnz wrote: post #15
aluhut wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tough statement. I doubt you can rehabilitate a such negative term in not even 2 years.

I don't agree with you on this. I think that the existence of the AMA itself proves that at least in some circles you can.

Look at the posts there, it's people having fun with people who identity as neoliberal without any sense of irony. Neoliberal is a dirty word among pretty much every group of contemporary politically minded folks.

Re: Patrick Collison AMA on r/neoliberal

#27

Post by lhnz »

aluhut wrote: post #18
lhnz wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with you on this. I think that the existence of the AMA itself proves that at least in some circles you can.

An AMA in a sub called "neoliberal" is hardly an indicator.

Participation by elites in a group that might at one point have had negative connotations is a sign of it being rehabilitated.

Re: Patrick Collison AMA on r/neoliberal

#28

Post by aluhut »

nostrademons wrote: post #24
aluhut wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tough statement. I doubt you can rehabilitate a such negative term in not even 2 years.

In some circles it was never a negative term to begin with. In other circles it will remain a negative term forever, regardless of what you do. One interesting consequence of the Internet is that we're becoming very aware that for every label you could ascribe to yourself, there is some group out there who holds a deep, visceral hate for that label, so deep that they wish you would just cease to exist. I guess this w…

I don't talk about extremists.

The term itself was hardly known/in use to the general public before the crash 2008 and occupy. Since then it was only known as basically a different word for greed.

As another commenter (who obviously decided to delete his comment) wrote here, I also doubt that a re-branding will ever be successful. It's not like coming up with a new term in economy is something hard to do.

Re: Patrick Collison AMA on r/neoliberal

#29

Post by aluhut »

lhnz wrote: post #27
aluhut wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An AMA in a sub called "neoliberal" is hardly an indicator.

Participation by elites in a group that might at one point have had negative connotations is a sign of it being rehabilitated.

Participation by elites in neoliberalism was the reason why the term has a negative connotation in the first place...

Re: Patrick Collison AMA on r/neoliberal

#30

Post by lhnz »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #25
lhnz wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who do you believe is rediscovering a 30 year old term here? Have you heard of the Adam Smith Institute? It is a neoliberal think-tank and over the years many of its policies have been adopted by the UK. That blog post was written by the executive director. > The inability to come up with a new interesting term (or acknowledge the history behind the existing term) doesn't portend great things. Quoting your previous d…

Who do you believe is discovering a 30 year old term here? You claimed that that blog post "rehabilitates" the term. I'm saying that the general beliefs that the author describes are well-trod ground within neoliberalism. He's describing himself as a third way neoliberal with slightly more libertarian tendencies. Have you heard of the Adam Smith Institute? It is a neoliberal think-tank and over the years many of its…

The point isn't to wow you with credentials. The point is that your previous insistence that this definition isn't correct or common is absurd.

That post rehabilitated neoliberalism. There is now a community of people that use the term this way. Many have tens of thousands of followers on Twitter. Memes are created by its fans. CEOs of huge startups drop-in to do AMAs, etc.

To say that there has been no change in how the term is used or perceived over the last few years is utterly ridiculous.

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