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MIT and newly formed company launch effort to build compact tokamak pilot plant

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Re: MIT and newly formed company launch effort to build compact tokamak pilot plant

#21

Post by CapitalistCartr »

markvdb wrote: post #9

Cheap nuclear fusion energy would be a great human achievement. I do wonder about its effects on society though. Any reading containing well reasoned speculation on that? Here's what I can think of myself. * A cheaper, cleaner energy source might outcompete fossil fuel. Less air polution, yay! * Cheaper energy would significantly increase energy consumption. Think Jevons paradox[0]. The effect of that increased heat…

Replacing crude oil, removing the market for Middle-Eastern oil would not cause political stability in the short to mid term. Suddenly yanking the economic rug out from under those nations would cause massive instabilty.

Re: MIT and newly formed company launch effort to build compact tokamak pilot plant

#22

Post by jcfrei »

kaplun wrote: post #3

Go ENI! It's amazing how an Italian Oil and Gas company is working hard to collaborate with research with the aim of revolutionizing energy extraction. This is inspiring and giving hope on the future.

Most oil and gas companies have rebranded themselves as "energy companies" and are fortunately starting to invest in alternative technologies. Norwegian Statoil is another great example: They are invested in offshore floating wind farms. These companies know the reliance on fossil fuels is ending.

Re: MIT and newly formed company launch effort to build compact tokamak pilot plant

#23

Post by IanCal »

markvdb wrote: post #9

Cheap nuclear fusion energy would be a great human achievement. I do wonder about its effects on society though. Any reading containing well reasoned speculation on that? Here's what I can think of myself. * A cheaper, cleaner energy source might outcompete fossil fuel. Less air polution, yay! * Cheaper energy would significantly increase energy consumption. Think Jevons paradox[0]. The effect of that increased heat…

> The effect of that increased heat production on global warming can't be good.

While I'd expect energy use to go up, heat generated I think would be far too small to make a difference.

Re: MIT and newly formed company launch effort to build compact tokamak pilot plant

#24

Post by riffraff »

kaplun wrote: post #3

Go ENI! It's amazing how an Italian Oil and Gas company is working hard to collaborate with research with the aim of revolutionizing energy extraction. This is inspiring and giving hope on the future.

The key is diversifying, ENI also just started the largest non-institutional supercomputer [0] to improve oil exploration, it's not like they are giving up on fossil, just hedging their position.

[0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-18/eni-takes...

Re: MIT and newly formed company launch effort to build compact tokamak pilot plant

#25

Post by kungtotte »

jfaucett wrote: post #10
tinco wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solar and wind will never be enough to cover all energy demand. It is a common misconception, it is not even possible to reduce energy consumption to low enough that solar and wind would be sufficient. If we want to stop burning fuel, we must research nuclear. Of course it is unlikely that we would stop burning fuel any time soon, and that's why 15 years is unfortunately not an inconvenient timeline. If you're intere…

Came here to say the same thing. Anytime an energy discussion comes up, I try to help dispell this myth that wind and solar will solve all our problems, especially in the global context of rising energy needs. If you care about the enviroment and our future on this planet, it behooves you to look into nuclear research and get uptodate. I would love to see us solve the clean energy problem fully this century, and the…

It's always been my instinct that decentralisation of energy production is the true path forward, regardless of method.

If most of us had solar panels on our roofs for example you would reduce the demand on the power grid. It's not enough to be completely self reliant except for a very few people, but if everyone dropped their consumption by say 20% on average, that's a whole lot of power that centralised plants don't need to generate.

For people living on larger properties, a small wind turbine or two is also not out of the question.

Every little bit helps.

Re: MIT and newly formed company launch effort to build compact tokamak pilot plant

#26

Post by ScipioAfricanus »

It's hard to fully comprehend the impact of new energy sources on civilization. So much of what we do is only possible because we have the necessary energy at our disposal.

When civilization finds new energy sources, most other technologies level up as well.

Consider one of the biggest problems with desalinization systems: pumping water inland. The actual separation of salt from seawater isn't the most energy intensive part of the process. Desalinization works great for wealthy coastal communities.

But a large nation like the US or China would never be able to fulfill the water demand of its people through desalinization alone because the cost of transporting coastal water inland would be prohibitive.

Enter something like fusion, which is orders of magnitude more efficient on a per pound of fuel basis than fossil fuels and something like distributing water to everyone in the US from the coasts becomes possible.

Re: MIT and newly formed company launch effort to build compact tokamak pilot plant

#27

Post by slfnflctd »

tinco wrote: post #5
vosper wrote: post #4

Fusion is still exciting, but with normal renewable (solar, wind) costs plummeting the way they are is there still such a compelling case for pouring money into fusion? This one aims to produce a working plant within 15 years. I'm not sure that any of the other efforts are closer to being viable (if they work at all). That's the kind of time frame in which we may master offshore wind and grid-attached storage like th…

Solar and wind will never be enough to cover all energy demand. It is a common misconception, it is not even possible to reduce energy consumption to low enough that solar and wind would be sufficient. If we want to stop burning fuel, we must research nuclear. Of course it is unlikely that we would stop burning fuel any time soon, and that's why 15 years is unfortunately not an inconvenient timeline. If you're intere…

> it is not even possible to reduce energy consumption to low enough that solar and wind would be sufficient.

Readers should remember that this is due to the needs of industrial, infrastructure, transport and military applications, which dwarf everything else.

Most residential and commercial needs are much more practical to make 100% wind/solar.

Re: MIT and newly formed company launch effort to build compact tokamak pilot plant

#28

Post by Jedd »

jfaucett wrote: post #10
tinco wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solar and wind will never be enough to cover all energy demand. It is a common misconception, it is not even possible to reduce energy consumption to low enough that solar and wind would be sufficient. If we want to stop burning fuel, we must research nuclear. Of course it is unlikely that we would stop burning fuel any time soon, and that's why 15 years is unfortunately not an inconvenient timeline. If you're intere…

Came here to say the same thing. Anytime an energy discussion comes up, I try to help dispell this myth that wind and solar will solve all our problems, especially in the global context of rising energy needs. If you care about the enviroment and our future on this planet, it behooves you to look into nuclear research and get uptodate. I would love to see us solve the clean energy problem fully this century, and the…

> ... I try to help dispell this myth that wind and solar will solve all our problems, especially in the global context of rising energy needs.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16473729

I can't see any comment from you on this story from 10 days ago that was titled:

"After rising for 100 years, electricity demand is flat (vox.com)"

Not everyone agrees that rising energy needs are a given, or even just a myth that we should be politely accommodating.

It would behoove you to separate fusion and fission from any call to action to investigation 'nuclear' as they are substantially different in terms of waste and safety.

Re: MIT and newly formed company launch effort to build compact tokamak pilot plant

#29

Post by mannykannot »

MayeulC wrote: post #14

This is yet another area where high temperature superconductors revolutionizes its engineering. I can't wait for more insights to be made in this domain: the way superconductors behave is actually becoming clearer and clearer from one year to another. Ambient temperature superconductors are the holy grail of the field, of course, but this project shows that even ~80 K superconductors can substantially reduce the size…

I cannot help but think that ITER has been a harmful mistake. With at least 17 years to go before it is operational, it already seems obsolescent in some key technological areas, such as magnets, yet it keeps on going, sucking up funds that might be better applied elsewhere (though whether they would be is an open question.) The project reminds me of Britain's attempt to build the airliner of the future in the Bristol Brabazon [1], but which was obsolete by the time it flew. The biggest cost was probably in lost time.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Brabazon

Re: MIT and newly formed company launch effort to build compact tokamak pilot plant

#30

Post by monort »

markvdb wrote: post #9

Cheap nuclear fusion energy would be a great human achievement. I do wonder about its effects on society though. Any reading containing well reasoned speculation on that? Here's what I can think of myself. * A cheaper, cleaner energy source might outcompete fossil fuel. Less air polution, yay! * Cheaper energy would significantly increase energy consumption. Think Jevons paradox[0]. The effect of that increased heat…

Global warming will be solved, when we have a source of cheap electricity, it will be possible to just pull CO2 from the air.
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