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African elephants are migrating to safety, telling each other how to get there

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Re: African elephants are migrating to safety, telling each other how to get there

#21

Post by adjkant »

crpatino wrote: post #19

I am surprised that nobody has raised this issue? If elephants are smart enough to recognize an enemy, avoid it, and warn other elephants that have not seen this enemy first hand... do they qualify as people? They certainly seem at least as smart as dolphins, and their trunks allow for a crude form of tool manipulation that dolphins lack. We humans define our personhood in terms not just of raw intelligence, but also…

As "people" is quite a bar and one I don't think is relevant.

I think they do require agency/respect/laws fitting of a properly conscious being though. Often people put humans on a pedestal, but in reality, we aren't special in regards to morality.

Re: African elephants are migrating to safety, telling each other how to get there

#22

Post by joshmarlow »

crpatino wrote: post #19

I am surprised that nobody has raised this issue? If elephants are smart enough to recognize an enemy, avoid it, and warn other elephants that have not seen this enemy first hand... do they qualify as people? They certainly seem at least as smart as dolphins, and their trunks allow for a crude form of tool manipulation that dolphins lack. We humans define our personhood in terms not just of raw intelligence, but also…

Tangentially related, but if this train of thought interests you, you may be interested in the "Great Ape Personhood" project. From [0]:

> Great ape personhood is a movement to extend personhood and some legal protections to the non-human members of the Hominidae or great ape family: chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_ape_personhood

Re: African elephants are migrating to safety, telling each other how to get there

#23

Post by maxerickson »

dalbasal wrote: post #2

This is tangental.... I've read/heard a bunch about "rewilding" as a concept over the last year, introducing mostly megafaunal populations to their historic ranges, sometimes very historic. Hippos, lions and hyenas in scotland for a particularly quirky example. There are some very tentative efforts currently to reintroduce bison, lynxes and some other species to western europe. Anyway... 350,000 wild african elephant…

One theory I've seen is that African megafauna evolved alongside tool using bipeds so they never had a period where they didn't have a fear instinct.

Re: African elephants are migrating to safety, telling each other how to get there

#24

Post by DamnYuppie »

As a bow hunter I am keenly aware of the prowess of animals to know their environment and all its dangers, humans at the top of the list. These animals are wired to survive and adapt. When people are surprised that they exhibit these behaviors it is much more a condemnation of their lack of understanding of nature then it is a novel or new behavior on the part of the animals. These animals exist in a life and death struggle every day.

Re: African elephants are migrating to safety, telling each other how to get there

#25

Post by [deleted] »

DamnYuppie wrote: post #24

As a bow hunter I am keenly aware of the prowess of animals to know their environment and all its dangers, humans at the top of the list. These animals are wired to survive and adapt. When people are surprised that they exhibit these behaviors it is much more a condemnation of their lack of understanding of nature then it is a novel or new behavior on the part of the animals. These animals exist in a life and death s…

[deleted]

Re: African elephants are migrating to safety, telling each other how to get there

#26

Post by kraig »

crpatino wrote: post #19

I am surprised that nobody has raised this issue? If elephants are smart enough to recognize an enemy, avoid it, and warn other elephants that have not seen this enemy first hand... do they qualify as people? They certainly seem at least as smart as dolphins, and their trunks allow for a crude form of tool manipulation that dolphins lack. We humans define our personhood in terms not just of raw intelligence, but also…

Elephants are known to knock down trees and vegetation to make it easier to get to the things they want. If you have ever been on a safari you will see how easy it is to spot if there are elephants near by, they destroy just about everything in their path. AFAIK the only animal that regularly does this.

I don't know if modifying the environment for your purposes is consideration for being a person, but as humans we are often poor at understanding intelligence, comprehension, and empathy when something doesn't speak our native tongue.

Re: African elephants are migrating to safety, telling each other how to get there

#27

Post by mikepurvis »

maxerickson wrote: post #23
dalbasal wrote: post #2

This is tangental.... I've read/heard a bunch about "rewilding" as a concept over the last year, introducing mostly megafaunal populations to their historic ranges, sometimes very historic. Hippos, lions and hyenas in scotland for a particularly quirky example. There are some very tentative efforts currently to reintroduce bison, lynxes and some other species to western europe. Anyway... 350,000 wild african elephant…

One theory I've seen is that African megafauna evolved alongside tool using bipeds so they never had a period where they didn't have a fear instinct.

Yup: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hunters-killed-of...

Humans became adept hunters in the African context— when they went elsewhere in the world, the native megafauna were unprepared.

Re: African elephants are migrating to safety, telling each other how to get there

#28

Post by aaron695 »

>African elephants are migrating to safety—and telling each other how to get there

Anyone actually believe this shit?

Or is it upvoted because it's a talking point. As in... "if" there is a behaviour change why is it 'really' happening.

Or a more interesting talking point, how many people believe the ridiculous stuff? How toxic is this stuff to science? How can we move past it? Can we filter out the nutters who believe this magic?

Is this why people upvote?

Re: African elephants are migrating to safety, telling each other how to get there

#29

Post by rosser »

kraig wrote: post #26
crpatino wrote: post #19

I am surprised that nobody has raised this issue? If elephants are smart enough to recognize an enemy, avoid it, and warn other elephants that have not seen this enemy first hand... do they qualify as people? They certainly seem at least as smart as dolphins, and their trunks allow for a crude form of tool manipulation that dolphins lack. We humans define our personhood in terms not just of raw intelligence, but also…

Elephants are known to knock down trees and vegetation to make it easier to get to the things they want. If you have ever been on a safari you will see how easy it is to spot if there are elephants near by, they destroy just about everything in their path. AFAIK the only animal that regularly does this. I don't know if modifying the environment for your purposes is consideration for being a person, but as humans we a…

> AFAIK the only animal that regularly does this.

Humans?

Deforestation, strip-mining, dumping waste, drilling, war...

Just because we wrap all that up in an "economy" or "politics" doesn't make it non-destructive.

Re: African elephants are migrating to safety, telling each other how to get there

#30

Post by always_good »

rosser wrote: post #29
kraig wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elephants are known to knock down trees and vegetation to make it easier to get to the things they want. If you have ever been on a safari you will see how easy it is to spot if there are elephants near by, they destroy just about everything in their path. AFAIK the only animal that regularly does this. I don't know if modifying the environment for your purposes is consideration for being a person, but as humans we a…

> AFAIK the only animal that regularly does this. Humans? Deforestation, strip-mining, dumping waste, drilling, war... Just because we wrap all that up in an "economy" or "politics" doesn't make it non-destructive.

Their whole point in mentioning that is that humans already do it. Look at their second paragraph. Not sure how you thought someone else didn't know that.
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