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The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

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Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#21
post #2

As someone at the end of their undergrad, I have to agree that group based projects trend towards being unpleasant. The article describes the distribution of work harming full understanding of the content when all people contribute, however that's usually the best case. Most students are oversubscribed with four or five classes. There tends to always be some portion of a group which contributes trivially or simply do…

You don’t need to have a group of apathetic students in an organized course in order to learn via projects. Lots of people have taught themselves to program (and many other subjects and skills) by doing their own individual projects.

Yeah, but there is no denying that the external structure is helpful and the dedicated office hours can be a real lifesaver.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#22
I attended a university with a strong co-op program, and I personally believe it is the best possible solution. Classes were focused on theory and my three 6-month co-ops were spent working on meaningful software projects at real companies. As a result, I was able to build up a solid background in Computer Science theory, didn't have to deal with the shortcomings of group class projects, and learned how to ship production-worthy code under the mentorship of real, senior engineers (and got paid to boot).

Why more universities don't leverage co-op programs, especially given the exorbitant and rising cost of college tuition in the US, is beyond me.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#23
It's an interesting article. I'm not sure I agree with everything though, but maybe I do. Let me explain.

Let's compare programming to figure drawing for a minute. What you could do to learn for example is, you could learn the details of some part of the figure, like the eye. Well, that's cool but it's not gonna teach you. That's because the hard part in drawing the figure is dynamic, balance and proportions. It's not so much that the details are "easy" and that they don't require to be learnt, it's that, if your dynamic, balance and proportions are off, the details will be too.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is overly reductionist. Plenty of “theorists at heart” still think it’s boring to do lots of rote drills. :-) It’s not like doing drills really helps you develop new models/tools/concepts from first principles especially more than it helps you adapt existing models/tools/concepts to new situations. * * * I think the article under discussion here misses the point in a different way. He assumes that it’s i…

What I'm saying regarding rote drills is, when you tell a theorist that developing a model by yourself isn't interesting or helpful to you, their only other thought is, "you must be one of those weirdos who benefits from rote learning?" Project-based learning simply doesn't come to their mind; it's completely off their radar because it is, as op implies, potentially full of little all-consuming rabbit holes that are…

Feynman was complaining about something different. He was in the middle of working on large-scale projects and got annoyed that his coworkers got completely distracted by irrelevant (but amusing) tangents instead of doing their next task that everyone else was blocking on.

This is a problem of the coworker’s lack of executive planning / control / time management skills, not anything about learning via projects or theorizing. Arguably if the coworker had done a bit more project-based learning he would have better practiced those skills.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#26

It's an interesting article. I'm not sure I agree with everything though, but maybe I do. Let me explain. Let's compare programming to figure drawing for a minute. What you could do to learn for example is, you could learn the details of some part of the figure, like the eye. Well, that's cool but it's not gonna teach you. That's because the hard part in drawing the figure is dynamic, balance and proportions. It's no…

Every member of the team must be an expert in drawing the mannequin right.

Why? That's not at all clear, even from your example. "If the mannequin is wrong the details will be wrong" does not imply "everyone involved must know how to do the mannequin". Just that someone must.

Let's go from figure drawing to true multidisciplinary art -- 3D graphics. At least in the gaming industry, the rigger (creator of the skeleton and joints, relative expert in anatomy) is not necessary the modeler, is not necessarily the animator, is not necessary the texture artist, is not necessarily the 3d shader expert. None of these need to be particularly good at any of the other skills.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#27
Well, I am self-taught. Actually, I am still learning, I just started a year back. And IMO, project-based learning has been really beneficial in my case. In school, I always grew up knowing I am a bad student, I don't learn anything because I am too stupid to learn. Now, after my attempt at learning to program, I understand that it is not my inability to learn but more my inability to enjoy learning just for the sake of knowledge. When I learn something I need to know where I need it, where it fits into the bigger problem. And this is where a project-based learning has been helpful, what I know about topics like formal grammars, parsing, concurrency, distributed consensus, which data structure to use for a particular use case, basics of cryptography, sockets and protocols etc. is mostly because I took up projects that I found interesting and these projects needed me to have an idea about these things. And this is also project-based learnings biggest disadvantage. Whatever I learn, I learn from googling and reading the top few links. This leaves with serious gaps in my knowledge until I come across another article or resource that explains the gap or someone in some forum points it out to me. Learning in a formal setting is pre-emptive, but this also means there is an authoritative figure who gives you a structure that you follow to gain a thorough understanding of the topic. So I guess rather than saying one is superior to the other, attempts should be made to mix and match the good things from both styles.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#28
I think this has some good points, but ultimately comes to the wrong conclusion. The key idea, from my reading, was "isolate subskills and drill them."

I don't think that's necessarily separate from project-based learning.

To steal an example from another commenter, I'm actually nearing the end of a figure drawing course at a local community college (because, you know, sometimes I want to not be coding :) ). The three components of drawing (as described by this professor) are line, value (shading) and gesture (shape/flow).

One way you could teach that class would be: - Drill line. You're gonna straight lines, curve lines, squiggly lines until you can draw any arbitrary bezier curve you want. - Drill value. Just draw a metric ton of gradients. - Drill gesture. Draw lots of figure shapes without every really worrying about filling them in. - In the final class, try to put it all together and draw a whole person.

A much better way to teach it would be: - Draw a whole person, but don't worry too much about value and gesture- just try to get the line right. - Draw a whole person, but don't worry too much about line and gesture- just try to get the value right. - Draw a whole person, but don't worry too much about value and line- just try to get the gesture right. - Draw a whole person at the end using everything you've learned.

The latter way "drills" subskills, but it also practices the overall skill of "drawing a person."

In the same way, I'd strongly advocate project-based "drilling." Build an app to learn guis. Build an api-consuming cli to learn about apis. Build a chat app to learn networking. And if you want students to learn about networking, either assign it as an individual project or make sure all students work on the networking code (his chat app example was just a poorly-implemented assignment, not a problem with project-based learning).

Overall, it's hard to argue that someone who's spent most of their time building projects won't be better at building projects than someone who has not.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#29

It's an interesting article. I'm not sure I agree with everything though, but maybe I do. Let me explain. Let's compare programming to figure drawing for a minute. What you could do to learn for example is, you could learn the details of some part of the figure, like the eye. Well, that's cool but it's not gonna teach you. That's because the hard part in drawing the figure is dynamic, balance and proportions. It's no…

Every member of the team must be an expert in drawing the mannequin right. Why? That's not at all clear, even from your example. "If the mannequin is wrong the details will be wrong" does not imply "everyone involved must know how to do the mannequin". Just that someone must. Let's go from figure drawing to true multidisciplinary art -- 3D graphics. At least in the gaming industry, the rigger (creator of the skeleton…

[deleted]

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#30
post #22

I attended a university with a strong co-op program, and I personally believe it is the best possible solution. Classes were focused on theory and my three 6-month co-ops were spent working on meaningful software projects at real companies. As a result, I was able to build up a solid background in Computer Science theory, didn't have to deal with the shortcomings of group class projects, and learned how to ship produ…

Because education as a system isn't designed for actually learning, it's designed for perpetuating a meaningless and arbitrary game of credentialism to justify the socio-economic hierarchy.

And to babysit children so that their parents can spend more time participating in capitalism.

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