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The Future of Web Apps - Single Page Applications

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Re: The Future of Web Apps - Single Page Applications

#21

Post by asnyder »

thasmin wrote: post #17
asnyder wrote: post #2

Originally posted in blog comment: Indeed, we originally had this idea back in 2004 (pre-AJAX craze), which led to the creation of NOLOH ( http://www.noloh.com ), available to the public since 2009 (commercial since 2005, public beta in 2008). NOLOH allows you to create your website/WebApp in a single tier and then NOLOH will output your application in a "single page". Furthermore, it takes care of bookmarking, back…

NOLOH's tutorials are hard to find on that web site.

I'm sorry it was difficult for you to find the necessary resources. On the home there's a link to a series of around 20 YouTube videos, a developer zone with 30 extensive articles, a full and in-sync API reference, and a growing Demo section. You can also sign-up for a free hosted sandbox where you can get started right away, without the need to download or host anything yourself.

If you would be so kind, could you please tell us what sort of resources were you looking for, and where you were expecting to find them? Thanks.

Re: The Future of Web Apps - Single Page Applications

#22

Post by DTrejo »

kls wrote: post #20
adriand wrote: post #11

I think this makes sense in a couple of situations. First, for stuff that is fairly simple and where not having page loads is highly desirable, such as a music playing app like his example. Second, for stuff that is complex but you have a team of engineers and computer scientists as well as a suite of tools that make dealing with that complexity much more manageable, as in Gmail. In most other situations though, wher…

It is really not more complex and done right it is significantly simpler. If you roll your own toolkit it is a pain, but if you utilize a framework like Dojo, it is far easier than Java(JSP, Struts, JSF, et al.) or ASP.NET or even PHP. Without the contortions of pumping everything to the server and then getting a response and trying to figure out that context, you get a far less fragmented memory model. For example l…

Can you link to some examples of this? Do you use only dojo on the client side or is there something more?

Re: The Future of Web Apps - Single Page Applications

#23

Post by kls »

DTrejo wrote: post #22
kls wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is really not more complex and done right it is significantly simpler. If you roll your own toolkit it is a pain, but if you utilize a framework like Dojo, it is far easier than Java(JSP, Struts, JSF, et al.) or ASP.NET or even PHP. Without the contortions of pumping everything to the server and then getting a response and trying to figure out that context, you get a far less fragmented memory model. For example l…

Can you link to some examples of this? Do you use only dojo on the client side or is there something more?

For large applications I use Dojo, for quick small apps and web pages I use jQuery. I focus my time on these two because I feel that they represent the best in their respective classes. But yes, I use Dojo, CSS and HTML that is pretty much it. For the back end I use Java, mainly because there is a wealth of middle-ware technology available for Java. I use JAX-RS to provide all of my services as RESTFull services.

http://www.ibm.com/social/impact/

Re: The Future of Web Apps - Single Page Applications

#24

Post by kls »

revetkn wrote: post #18

GWT's been around for years now - I wish more people were aware of it and just how powerful it is :(

I think server frameworks like GWT and Echo take the wrong tack, they favor the developer to the detriment of the designer. I think the JavaScript toolkits have it right by separating the concern of the UI away from the back end and placing it squarely in the hands of the designer and UX developer. It is a different discipline and given the historic nature of web development, server toolkits either favored the developer (Java) or the designer (PHP) and made sacrifices to the opposing discipline. Removing the UI from the server all together provides the best of both worlds for all parties involved. Even if you are a lone gunman freelance.

Re: The Future of Web Apps - Single Page Applications

#25

Post by jmtulloss »

asnyder wrote: post #21
thasmin wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NOLOH's tutorials are hard to find on that web site.

I'm sorry it was difficult for you to find the necessary resources. On the home there's a link to a series of around 20 YouTube videos, a developer zone with 30 extensive articles, a full and in-sync API reference, and a growing Demo section. You can also sign-up for a free hosted sandbox where you can get started right away, without the need to download or host anything yourself. If you would be so kind, could you p…

When I clicked on the link, I almost clicked off before seeing what language this was even targeted at.

The first point is "Develop in a single, object-oriented language." That's just buzz.

Line 2: "Stop worrying about HTML, JavaScript, AJAX, and Comet." More buzz. Everybody says I can stop worrying about these things, but I still don't believe you. Is it web based?

Line 3: "Deploy seamlessly across all browsers and operating systems." Great, so it is web based and does exactly what every other web page does. Still not sold.

Line 4: "Create lightweight, on-demand websites and WebApps" More buzz, I don't care yet.

Line 5: "Boost your productivity. Develop faster, with fewer resources." Everybody says this, still not sold, ready to leave the site.

Line 6: "Enjoy many other exciting features." Great. I'm all the way through the bullet list and I still don't have any real idea what this project does.

Finally, as I scan the small print, I see that it is PHP based and is optimized for web apps.

This seems like a good idea, but the site is not great for discovering that.

One of my favorite new project sites is for vows (http://vowsjs.org/). It has one sentence declaring the goal, two sentences with output showing typical usage, and a brief paragraph explaining the purpose. All of it looks good too, and the rest of the documentation is very complete. I'd take a page out of their book if I were you.

Re: The Future of Web Apps - Single Page Applications

#26

Post by asnyder »

jmtulloss wrote: post #25
asnyder wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry it was difficult for you to find the necessary resources. On the home there's a link to a series of around 20 YouTube videos, a developer zone with 30 extensive articles, a full and in-sync API reference, and a growing Demo section. You can also sign-up for a free hosted sandbox where you can get started right away, without the need to download or host anything yourself. If you would be so kind, could you p…

When I clicked on the link, I almost clicked off before seeing what language this was even targeted at. The first point is "Develop in a single, object-oriented language." That's just buzz. Line 2: "Stop worrying about HTML, JavaScript, AJAX, and Comet." More buzz. Everybody says I can stop worrying about these things, but I still don't believe you. Is it web based? Line 3: "Deploy seamlessly across all browsers and…

Thanks for the feedback. We do have that huge header that says "Build for the Web Faster & Easier!", thus we would hope you immediately conclude it's web based. For most of those points above, the keywords are actually links to more information for each of those points.

Line 3 in particular is meant to emphasize that you can deploy across all browsers and operating systems, this is in fact not what every web page does, as most web pages would normally require tinkering to work in various different browsers versions.

However, I do see your point. We're in the process of adding a functional code sample to an area of the home, however, it's very difficult to strike the balance to appeal to those that make the software decisions and hardcore developers. Something like vows is clearly targeted towards the hardcore, whereas we're attempting to target a broader range, which includes the hardcore developers.

It is difficult and definitely something we're trying to improve. We appreciate your honest feedback and will definitely take your advice into consideration for our next update. Thank You.

Re: The Future of Web Apps - Single Page Applications

#27

Post by lapusta »

kls wrote: post #24
revetkn wrote: post #18

GWT's been around for years now - I wish more people were aware of it and just how powerful it is :(

I think server frameworks like GWT and Echo take the wrong tack, they favor the developer to the detriment of the designer. I think the JavaScript toolkits have it right by separating the concern of the UI away from the back end and placing it squarely in the hands of the designer and UX developer. It is a different discipline and given the historic nature of web development, server toolkits either favored the develo…

GWT is not a server framework.

Re: The Future of Web Apps - Single Page Applications

#28

Post by prodigal_erik »

asnyder wrote: post #15
adriand wrote: post #11

I think this makes sense in a couple of situations. First, for stuff that is fairly simple and where not having page loads is highly desirable, such as a music playing app like his example. Second, for stuff that is complex but you have a team of engineers and computer scientists as well as a suite of tools that make dealing with that complexity much more manageable, as in Gmail. In most other situations though, wher…

There doesn't need to be any additional complexity, if anything it can be simpler. I hate to constantly push NOLOH, but we've been doing this since 2005, and it works. It's been used by companies, and sites large and small, and no extra complexity necessary. If anything, it's significantly simpler than the normal web multi-tiered paradigm. Sure, if you try to do this manually, it's complex, but if you use a tool like…

It doesn't appear that they simply reinvented what you did. Their approach works well without js, meanwhile NOLOH and the four "powered by" sites are mazes of mostly dead links and missing alt text (one site has nothing more than a blurb blaming the visitor for the author's neglect, which I wouldn't showcase).

Re: The Future of Web Apps - Single Page Applications

#29

Post by asnyder »

prodigal_erik wrote: post #28
asnyder wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There doesn't need to be any additional complexity, if anything it can be simpler. I hate to constantly push NOLOH, but we've been doing this since 2005, and it works. It's been used by companies, and sites large and small, and no extra complexity necessary. If anything, it's significantly simpler than the normal web multi-tiered paradigm. Sure, if you try to do this manually, it's complex, but if you use a tool like…

It doesn't appear that they simply reinvented what you did. Their approach works well without js, meanwhile NOLOH and the four "powered by" sites are mazes of mostly dead links and missing alt text (one site has nothing more than a blurb blaming the visitor for the author's neglect, which I wouldn't showcase).

It's clear you didn't actually click on the sites in the powered by, but rather went completely on ShrinkTheWeb's out of date thumbnails. There is not a single dead link, and the image with the text is a reference to a server error, but clicking on the site goes to the live site.

There are 3 pages, with 9 live sites. There are many more, but not everybody decides to post their sites to the powered by section. We'll be starting a push to get NOLOH authors to post their sites there in the near future.

Furthermore, if you would've actually taken the time to read through our site, you would see that NOLOH does in fact render content without JS, if the developer chooses, which we're constantly improving. You can read our blog for more information.

It's somewhat shocking that this is what HN has come down to. Writing a reply without actually verifying your comment. I'm starting to think I don't belong here anymore, it's starting to feel like high school all over again.

Re: The Future of Web Apps - Single Page Applications

#30

Post by [deleted] »

DTrejo wrote: post #22
kls wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is really not more complex and done right it is significantly simpler. If you roll your own toolkit it is a pain, but if you utilize a framework like Dojo, it is far easier than Java(JSP, Struts, JSF, et al.) or ASP.NET or even PHP. Without the contortions of pumping everything to the server and then getting a response and trying to figure out that context, you get a far less fragmented memory model. For example l…

Can you link to some examples of this? Do you use only dojo on the client side or is there something more?

[deleted]
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