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People leave managers, not companies

blog.intercom.com

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Re: People leave managers, not companies

#21

Post by lliamander »

I have only ever left good managers. I've had bad managers, but it was only under good managers that I was fully enabled to do my best work - work that would give me the confidence (and the resume fodder) to pitch myself to a new company for better pay.

That may seem disloyal to those good managers, but I never left on a whim. It was always an agonizing process. But it was also always necessary. My former managers have never held it against me, and I now have connections with a number of great managers who would hire me without question if I was ever looking again (and they know I would work for them in a heartbeat).

What always happened was that it became evident that my interests and my company's interest had diverged, whether it was a lack of opportunity for advancement, the company was going under, the product was a non-starter, or upper-management was bent on self-sabotage.

EDIT: Added missing words

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#22

Post by toomanybeersies »

At my previous job, I left due to the company, not the management.

My direct supervisor was great. He was a good manager on most levels.

I left because the company had no future, they weren't going bankrupt, but they weren't growing either. I never got a pay rise, probably never would. My benefits actually shrunk as time went on, staff social functions were cut (e.g. team lunches), use of networking funds became more restricted, and my work environment became less flexible.

In fact, the only reason I considered staying was my manager and coworkers.

People leave poor working environments, whether it's a company or a manager causing that poor environment.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#23

Post by JdeBP »

BuckRogers wrote: post #14
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #3

Likewise, there probably isn't such a thing as a 10X developer, but I totally believe 10X managers exist (they provide cover, they have empathy, they are able to lead people who otherwise aren't very manageable). I've only met very few of them in my career, most managers are 1X or even negative.

That's because management is one of those fields that most people think they're qualified for. If you got arms, legs and are literate, many think they're cut out for it. Same goes for teaching or education in general. So many wannabe educators writing or producing programming lessons that clearly have never studied education theory. A notorious one or two out there as well. Art or professional grade creative endeavor…

On the contrary: One of the long-standing problems in engineering, technology, and indeed many other businesses (from nursing to Nickelodeon) has been what to do, when the traditional career progression was seen to be "next, you are promoted into management", with the large number of people who did not want to go into management.

Lots of people have been considering themselves unsuitable for management for decades. This is a problem that people were talking about in the "systems" world back in the 1970s and 1980s, and that is neither the only area that it was a problem in nor the earliest time that it was mentioned. Have a snippet from the Journal of Systems Management from 1980:

> The systems professional who wants to remain within his job, i.e., does not care if he is promoted, is one who sees his main purpose as contributing to the profession. But many professionals and many organizations feel that one must get promoted to a management position, for if one does not want to be a manager he is not ambitious. This reflects itself in many organizations when the annual review time rolls round, or when one wants to change jobs.

If your company today has an organization structure where entering management is not the only promotion path, decades of mulling and lots of people not seeing themselves as management is the cause.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#24

Post by hailk »

jclarkcom wrote: post #9
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #3

Likewise, there probably isn't such a thing as a 10X developer, but I totally believe 10X managers exist (they provide cover, they have empathy, they are able to lead people who otherwise aren't very manageable). I've only met very few of them in my career, most managers are 1X or even negative.

10x developers definitely exist, quite amazing to work with them.

What traits did you find in them. How do those traits convert with experience. Say, for example what would, according to you, make a 3-5 year experienced web developer 10x?

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#25

Post by murukesh_s »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #22

At my previous job, I left due to the company, not the management. My direct supervisor was great. He was a good manager on most levels. I left because the company had no future, they weren't going bankrupt, but they weren't growing either. I never got a pay rise, probably never would. My benefits actually shrunk as time went on, staff social functions were cut (e.g. team lunches), use of networking funds became more…

Yea, its too easy to say people leave managers, but it was never in my case. I think it varies between industry. With the software companies, the churn is mostly due to folks looking out for better opportunities..

Me personally almost always looked outside due to availability of better opportunities. The argument that people leave managers makes sense only if you are in the best possible job/company you can get with your skill set (which is a very small %) and you somehow got a rift with the manager big enough to leave.

But it could be different in other domains/industries where people stick with the same company till their retirement..

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#27

Post by Scea91 »

hailk wrote: post #24
jclarkcom wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10x developers definitely exist, quite amazing to work with them.

What traits did you find in them. How do those traits convert with experience. Say, for example what would, according to you, make a 3-5 year experienced web developer 10x?

Easy. It's not about LOC written but about making the right decisions. One bad decision can cost you months of work.

Also many people are not even able to finish more complex projects. I am just not sure if they are 1X developers or 0.1X developers.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#28

Post by somberi »

I have been managing large teams (Anywhere from 100 to 300 people) and in my experience I would phrase it differently.

1. In a going concern, which has found traction, a manager is often the _reason_ for people to leave the company.

2. In a company that is not finding traction, or the larger view of its direction is obfuscated, managers are the reason people _stay_ back to work.

This manager being the end-all of association comes from military knowledge that you fight because of allegiance to your battalion, cause and the country - in that order.

In an knowledge enterprise, these constructs exist, but with almost equal weightage.

The best manager cannot make an employee stay back if the company is not going anywhere, or if the cause is not evident.

The worst manager will lose employees even if the company is going bonkers.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#29

Post by jondubois »

somberi wrote: post #28

I have been managing large teams (Anywhere from 100 to 300 people) and in my experience I would phrase it differently. 1. In a going concern, which has found traction, a manager is often the _reason_ for people to leave the company. 2. In a company that is not finding traction, or the larger view of its direction is obfuscated, managers are the reason people _stay_ back to work. This manager being the end-all of asso…

Totally agree. If the company has enough traction and I have a decent shares/options package with a clear exit strategy in sight then I'd stay even if my boss was a wild baboon and my job mostly involved shoveling monkey shit.

If you're a manager in a high traction company and you're losing employees regularly, you should seriously consider finding another career.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#30

Post by sifoo »

jclarkcom wrote: post #9
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #3

Likewise, there probably isn't such a thing as a 10X developer, but I totally believe 10X managers exist (they provide cover, they have empathy, they are able to lead people who otherwise aren't very manageable). I've only met very few of them in my career, most managers are 1X or even negative.

10x developers definitely exist, quite amazing to work with them.

It's not magic; it's vast amounts of experience; writing more code than, and twisting brains in ways that, normal people can't even imagine; and sticking with it for decades. I have no idea if I'm 5x or 10x or whatever, what I do know is that it's extremely rare to come across people who are more dedicated to the craft and/or have invested more in their skills.
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