Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#21

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 8:49 PM UTC

No, because “evolutionary purpose” is an incoherent concept, since evolution is inconsistent with purpose.

Now, asking if it is a trait that contributed to fitness directly in the environment in which it arose (rather than a side effect of the underlying mechanism of some such trait or combination of traits that is not, in itself, a contributor to fitness in the environment in which it arose) may be a useful and legitimate question to ask.

OTOH, this article doesn't really seem to have much to offer but speculation that segues into a really unrelated (and poorly considered) argument about treating depression that is about equivalent, borrowing the article’s own broken leg analogy, to arguing that because broken legs ultimately may be caused by, e.g., uneven stairs, that doctors are obligated to fix the stairs before treating the broken leg.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#22

Post by DoreenMichele » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 8:49 PM UTC

doctorcroc wrote: post #8

Tangential, but this psychologist argues that depression evolved as a behavioral shutdown mechanism to prevent humans from over-investing in tactics or behaviors that did not yield any benefit (from a dopaminergic standpoint) -- https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/theory-knowledge/201604... . The reasoning is that we conserve energy by not pursuing "dead-ends". Naturally, this evolutionary mechanism is thrown for a…

There seem to be two general responses to problems: anger or depression.

Righteous anger properly channeled can be a force for good. But if your current crappy situation is the least worst answer you can come up with, depression is the lesser evil. You shouldn't rock the boat if there is zero upside and a lot of downside to doing so.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#23

Post by vinay427 » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 8:49 PM UTC

danharaj wrote: post #19

doctorcroc wrote: post #8

Tangential, but this psychologist argues that depression evolved as a behavioral shutdown mechanism to prevent humans from over-investing in tactics or behaviors that did not yield any benefit (from a dopaminergic standpoint) -- https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/theory-knowledge/201604... . The reasoning is that we conserve energy by not pursuing "dead-ends". Naturally, this evolutionary mechanism is thrown for a…

> this evolutionary mechanism is thrown for a loop in an existence where survival is assured, and meaning becomes the main spectre psychologically. Most people who suffer from depression because of environmental factors have no real substantial changes they can make to their life that would resolve the root issue of their depression. I could "fix" my depression once I had an independent high paying job that let me li…

Could you please rephrase or elaborate on this? I'm not sure if I interpreted it correctly.

> What I'm saying is that we paper over the contradictions of the illusion of self determination peddled to us in rich Western societies by making depression seem like a personal, idiopathic problem.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#24

Post by insickness » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 8:51 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #22

doctorcroc wrote: post #8

Tangential, but this psychologist argues that depression evolved as a behavioral shutdown mechanism to prevent humans from over-investing in tactics or behaviors that did not yield any benefit (from a dopaminergic standpoint) -- https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/theory-knowledge/201604... . The reasoning is that we conserve energy by not pursuing "dead-ends". Naturally, this evolutionary mechanism is thrown for a…

There seem to be two general responses to problems: anger or depression. Righteous anger properly channeled can be a force for good. But if your current crappy situation is the least worst answer you can come up with, depression is the lesser evil. You shouldn't rock the boat if there is zero upside and a lot of downside to doing so.

It's been said that depression is anger turned inward.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#25

Post by k__ » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 9:03 PM UTC

danharaj wrote: post #19

doctorcroc wrote: post #8

Tangential, but this psychologist argues that depression evolved as a behavioral shutdown mechanism to prevent humans from over-investing in tactics or behaviors that did not yield any benefit (from a dopaminergic standpoint) -- https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/theory-knowledge/201604... . The reasoning is that we conserve energy by not pursuing "dead-ends". Naturally, this evolutionary mechanism is thrown for a…

> this evolutionary mechanism is thrown for a loop in an existence where survival is assured, and meaning becomes the main spectre psychologically. Most people who suffer from depression because of environmental factors have no real substantial changes they can make to their life that would resolve the root issue of their depression. I could "fix" my depression once I had an independent high paying job that let me li…

"I could "fix" my depression once I had an independent high paying job that let me live anywhere and choose to live in the way I need to live in order to be happy."

My girlfriend works in a psychiartry for people with depression and she told me that it has nothing todo with success.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#26

Post by danharaj » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 9:06 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #25

danharaj wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this evolutionary mechanism is thrown for a loop in an existence where survival is assured, and meaning becomes the main spectre psychologically. Most people who suffer from depression because of environmental factors have no real substantial changes they can make to their life that would resolve the root issue of their depression. I could "fix" my depression once I had an independent high paying job that let me li…

"I could "fix" my depression once I had an independent high paying job that let me live anywhere and choose to live in the way I need to live in order to be happy." My girlfriend works in a psychiartry for people with depression and she told me that it has nothing todo with success.

The success didn't cure my depression. The success meant I had the independence and financial ability to address the problems in my life that caused my depression. Of course, the first step was going to a Psych and getting medication and therapy to start the process, but I have been able to manage my depression without either for quite some time now.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#27

Post by racer-v » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 9:09 PM UTC

insickness wrote: post #24

DoreenMichele wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seem to be two general responses to problems: anger or depression. Righteous anger properly channeled can be a force for good. But if your current crappy situation is the least worst answer you can come up with, depression is the lesser evil. You shouldn't rock the boat if there is zero upside and a lot of downside to doing so.

It's been said that depression is anger turned inward.

"Depression is anger without enthusiasm" - Steven Wright and/or Charles Saatchi

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#28

Post by DoreenMichele » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 9:10 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #25

danharaj wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this evolutionary mechanism is thrown for a loop in an existence where survival is assured, and meaning becomes the main spectre psychologically. Most people who suffer from depression because of environmental factors have no real substantial changes they can make to their life that would resolve the root issue of their depression. I could "fix" my depression once I had an independent high paying job that let me li…

"I could "fix" my depression once I had an independent high paying job that let me live anywhere and choose to live in the way I need to live in order to be happy." My girlfriend works in a psychiartry for people with depression and she told me that it has nothing todo with success.

There are two general sources of depression: environmental and biochemical. The parent acknowledged that:

people who suffer from depression because of environmental factors

Folks who have brain wonkiness can't fix it by fixing other life problems. But people who are depressed because their life sucks absolutely can see their mood improve by fixing other problems.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#29

Post by danharaj » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 9:10 PM UTC

vinay427 wrote: post #23

danharaj wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this evolutionary mechanism is thrown for a loop in an existence where survival is assured, and meaning becomes the main spectre psychologically. Most people who suffer from depression because of environmental factors have no real substantial changes they can make to their life that would resolve the root issue of their depression. I could "fix" my depression once I had an independent high paying job that let me li…

Could you please rephrase or elaborate on this? I'm not sure if I interpreted it correctly. > What I'm saying is that we paper over the contradictions of the illusion of self determination peddled to us in rich Western societies by making depression seem like a personal, idiopathic problem.

There's a particular essay I would like to link to that would better articulate the point, but I can't find it so easily. I'll keep looking and respond when I do.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#30

Post by sunir » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 9:21 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #25

danharaj wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this evolutionary mechanism is thrown for a loop in an existence where survival is assured, and meaning becomes the main spectre psychologically. Most people who suffer from depression because of environmental factors have no real substantial changes they can make to their life that would resolve the root issue of their depression. I could "fix" my depression once I had an independent high paying job that let me li…

"I could "fix" my depression once I had an independent high paying job that let me live anywhere and choose to live in the way I need to live in order to be happy." My girlfriend works in a psychiartry for people with depression and she told me that it has nothing todo with success.

Rank Theory suggests otherwise. Not sure why she would say that.