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A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

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Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#21

Post by metaphor »

matte_black wrote: post #20
metaphor wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you not read the parent's remark? My comment was directed towards discussion of article's proposed solution , not resolution .

That’s one way to interpret it, but given the disappointment that was expressed I’d assume it was a reference to “solution” of writing the problem off as human error for which nothing can be done. Until the op clarifies what they meant, both our comments are equally valid or invalid.

To be sure, there's a nice and bold sub-section of the article titled A Simple Solution which I (perhaps naively) presumed the parent was referring to--further reinforced (in my mind) by a username which subtly suggested specialization in traffic engineering.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#22

Post by csours »

Unrelated, a few days ago I was thinking about this intersection: https://www.google.com/maps/@31.5075019,-96.3308952,243m/dat...

Traffic on Hwy 164 does not stop, Hwy 39 does stop. However Hwy 39 has yield lanes that can be used to enter 164 via a right turn, and only slowing down, and not coming to a complete stop.

A few years ago there was a lot of gas drilling in the area, and the trucks working the drilling sites would use the yield lanes - to turn left!

This made me pretty mad, until I thought about it for a while. In a big truck you would not be able to see traffic from both directions, so they used the yield lane to 'square up' to traffic.

---

When you design your User Experience, consider the human. Humans slip up[0], momentarily forgetting to do the right thing.

If your design becomes dangerous due to a slip, it is the worst kind of design. You see this kind of design on older industrial equipment - for instance presses without safeguards. Managers back then would make the same comment you regularly see on articles like this: 'All you have to do is pay attention, and it's safe.'

This is, frankly, stupid. If all it takes for a system to become unsafe is a momentary lapse in judgement, then the system is unsafe.

Manufacturers learned this via lawsuits (both for in-plant and user injuries) and now there are strict safety standards.

In the case of this unsafe intersection, responsibility is diffuse - it is split between driver, cyclist, local government, and the original contractor.

In a controlled environment like a hospital or manufacturing plant, you can measure near-misses as proxies for dangerous events. At a rural intersection, who would measure near-misses? An individual cyclist may have a near-miss and comment on it to her friends; would any drivers ever hear about it? Would the government ever hear about it? Would anyone care?

0. https://www.interaction-design.org/literature/book/the-gloss...

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To improve your perception in situations like this, you can add two tools -

1. Always take your foot off the gas and cover the brake when going through intersections. This naturally slows you down a bit, and if there is an issue you are in position to stop.

2. Owl bob your head from time to time. It sounds stupid, but it moves you out of your blind spots, and also clears saccadic masking - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccadic_masking

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#23

Post by rwbcxrz »

As a driver, I do my best to slow down a bit at any intersection, but particularly ones like this. Unfortunately, that tends to frustrate anyone driving behind me, sometimes to the point that they’ll try to overtake me (illegally) before the intersection.

In my mind, better traffic engineering is the best solution, but that seems unlikely, at least in the US. I’d imagine that the article’s suggested changes would cost more to build, even for new construction. To compound the issue, I get the feeling that most drivers would prefer it if cyclists weren’t allowed to ride on public roads.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#24

Post by maxerickson »

bdamm wrote: post #17
temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #8

There's a lot of math in this article about blind spots and car pillars and whatnot, but a Google Maps Street View appears to show the terrain and brush blocking the view on approach [1][2], making all of this math largely moot. That the drivers in question didn't even so much as slow down for this approach is beyond reckless, aside from the other lawbreaking that followed. The 'Give Way' sign is idiotic, put a Stop…

Indeed, a stop sign would solve this, wouldn’t it? Simplist & cheapest solution first. The point about the geometry is that it doesn’t matter at which point the driver can see over the hill and brush; they still won’t see the cyclist.

The UK hates stop signs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_sign#United_Kingdom

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#25

Post by ams6110 »

JonahBraun wrote: post #19
ams6110 wrote: post #12

First rule of cycling: assume drivers don't see you.

In the article, the author explains that from the cyclists orientation, the car approaches from 94 degrees.

Doesn't matter. If you're cycling and you see a moving car, assume the driver doesn't see you. Never cross the path of a moving car even if you have the right of way or a green light etc. When you approach a junction, your head needs to be on a swivel constantly looking left and right and you need to be prepared to stop even if you have the right of way. This pretty much goes for motorcyclists as well.

I'm not blaming the cyclists here, but the reality is that when you are cycling it doesn't matter whose fault it is if a car hits you. You're still dead.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#26

Post by Spivak »

matte_black wrote: post #11
rayiner wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forcing drivers to make left turns just to stay on the same road is a recipe for more car accidents. The proble could be resolved simply by putting up a stop light.

If the goal is to maintain speed through the intersection they could have built a bridge to overlap the other road.

I get that the author wanted a cheap solution but this is really the correct approach. A gradual bridge/tunnel with two slip lanes would accommodate everyone, including the people that want to blow though the intersection.

All the solutions like, 'let's find a way to force cars to slow down' are just going to make auto drivers have even more resentment toward cyclists.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#27

Post by recursive »

ams6110 wrote: post #25
JonahBraun wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the article, the author explains that from the cyclists orientation, the car approaches from 94 degrees.

Doesn't matter. If you're cycling and you see a moving car, assume the driver doesn't see you. Never cross the path of a moving car even if you have the right of way or a green light etc. When you approach a junction, your head needs to be on a swivel constantly looking left and right and you need to be prepared to stop even if you have the right of way. This pretty much goes for motorcyclists as well. I'm not blamin…

If you read the article, then you'd know that the cyclist probably did not see the car at all.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#28

Post by recursive »

rayiner wrote: post #9
metaphor wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to explain your reason(s) for disappointment, and/or posit a sensible alternative for consideration?

Forcing drivers to make left turns just to stay on the same road is a recipe for more car accidents. The proble could be resolved simply by putting up a stop light.

Your assertion about what's a recipe for more collisions is not well supported. It doesn't even seem true to me.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#29

Post by protomyth »

bdamm wrote: post #17
temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #8

There's a lot of math in this article about blind spots and car pillars and whatnot, but a Google Maps Street View appears to show the terrain and brush blocking the view on approach [1][2], making all of this math largely moot. That the drivers in question didn't even so much as slow down for this approach is beyond reckless, aside from the other lawbreaking that followed. The 'Give Way' sign is idiotic, put a Stop…

Indeed, a stop sign would solve this, wouldn’t it? Simplist & cheapest solution first. The point about the geometry is that it doesn’t matter at which point the driver can see over the hill and brush; they still won’t see the cyclist.

In the US, they would put up a stop sign and park a cop near there for some instant, costly learning experiences. Although, if the speed is sufficient you would probably get an overpass, particularly if one road is a known truck route. It would be interesting to build a bicycle only overpass.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#30

Post by djsumdog »

u801e wrote: post #5

Why does this junction not have a roundabout? Would having one there reduce the chances for a crash by forcing vehicles to reduce their speed when approaching the intersection?

Another comment explained how the UK hates stop signs, but yes, a roundabout would be a great and very British/European solution that would probably be very effective.
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