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Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings

nytimes.com

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Re: Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings

#21

Post by vorotato »

brucephillips wrote: post #5
vorotato wrote: post #3

"the trickle-down effect to cases like those of Garrison Keillor, Jonathan Schwartz, Ryan Lizza and Al Franken, in which the accusations are scattered, anonymous or, as far as the public knows, very vague and unspecific, has been troubling." This is a hot take, especially when Al Franken was literally photographed with his hands on a woman's chest. Sexual assault is bad, using your position to enable that should get…

> Al Franken was literally photographed with his hands on a woman's chest. No, he wasn't.

Yes, I guess you're correct looking very closely it does appear he is merely making groping motions very close to her breasts. It changes it from sexual assault to sexual harassment which is still completely unacceptable. It still is not a behavior that any of our elected officials should be engaging in.

Re: Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings

#22

Post by brucephillips »

FussyZeus wrote: post #17
brucephillips wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well put. What I would like to see is a public discussion around what constitutes a power dynamic large enough to make sexual advances unacceptable. Any two people have some degree of power differential, after all.

That's a VERY hard question to answer. And of course there is going to be situations where a Manager legitimately is romantically interested in a subordinate. It's going to happen, it's not even that out there of a scenario. I think the most logical step is to get this shit out of the news cycle entirely. Accuser and accused should be out of the public eye for as long as we can possibly manage. The problem is so many…

A manager relationship is the most clear cut. Much harder are the "powerful people in the industry" relationships. Is the entire industry off limits to those at the top?

Re: Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings

#23

Post by vorotato »

pzenger wrote: post #6
vorotato wrote: post #3

"the trickle-down effect to cases like those of Garrison Keillor, Jonathan Schwartz, Ryan Lizza and Al Franken, in which the accusations are scattered, anonymous or, as far as the public knows, very vague and unspecific, has been troubling." This is a hot take, especially when Al Franken was literally photographed with his hands on a woman's chest. Sexual assault is bad, using your position to enable that should get…

He had his hands hovering over a woman's chest, not touching it.

I had only seen the photo and not read the investigations around it. In the photo it was unclear as to whether he was or was not touching. I'll concede I may have been wrong about that but still stand by the premise that you should not be a US senator if you cannot avoid sexually harassing US citizens (joke or otherwise).

Re: Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings

#24

Post by brucephillips »

vorotato wrote: post #21
brucephillips wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Al Franken was literally photographed with his hands on a woman's chest. No, he wasn't.

Yes, I guess you're correct looking very closely it does appear he is merely making groping motions very close to her breasts. It changes it from sexual assault to sexual harassment which is still completely unacceptable. It still is not a behavior that any of our elected officials should be engaging in.

It's still not completely clear. I haven't been following this case specifically, so I don't know other details that may have come out, but there can easily be mitigating circumstances. Maybe they had a cat and mouse game going on all day, and she had been doing the same to him. Maybe he was merely reciprocating an inside joke. He wasn't her boss, so that sort of game wouldn't be a big deal.

I'm sure this sounds to you like I'm reaching, but I can think of many, many similar circumstances where I've done something completely innocent in context that would get me skewered if taken as a sound bite or a picture. That's why I'm slow to take the man's career.

Re: Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings

#26

Post by vorotato »

belorn wrote: post #16
barrkel wrote: post #7

No light will come from discussion of this article.

I could not disagree more. In a world where great injustice have happened, the solution is rarely to abandon the legal system in order to right the wrongs. Too much collateral damage. The article encourage us to discuss how to right the wrongs without abandoning the legal system. That would be a nice discussion to have on HN.

I think most people who supported #MeToo or #BelieveAllWomen do not believe in abandoning the legal system, though they may be discussing adjusting the legal system such that we actually see more convictions of rapists, assaulters, etc where the evidence succeeds in proving the accused party guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Re: Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings

#27

Post by FussyZeus »

brucephillips wrote: post #22
FussyZeus wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a VERY hard question to answer. And of course there is going to be situations where a Manager legitimately is romantically interested in a subordinate. It's going to happen, it's not even that out there of a scenario. I think the most logical step is to get this shit out of the news cycle entirely. Accuser and accused should be out of the public eye for as long as we can possibly manage. The problem is so many…

A manager relationship is the most clear cut. Much harder are the "powerful people in the industry" relationships. Is the entire industry off limits to those at the top?

Again, all of this is extremely muddy by nature and will stay that way. There are innumerable variables in every single case: the intent of the accused, their credibility, their track record regarding these issues, the circumstances of the perceived attack, the credibility of the accuser, which of them is actually telling more of the truth, anything that was documented, on and on and on.

Right now there is a revulsion in the public space because of the real bad cases like Weinstein, who had a long and seemingly well known track record for abusing his station to get sexual favors from women in his industry, and use of his connections to keep it quiet from people who would've made it public. That needs to fade away before there's any realistic chance of a rational discussion. Yes, some people are going to get caught in the crossfire and that's unfortunate, but I don't see a way around it.

Re: Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings

#28

Post by nuclearchicken »

vorotato wrote: post #23
pzenger wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He had his hands hovering over a woman's chest, not touching it.

I had only seen the photo and not read the investigations around it. In the photo it was unclear as to whether he was or was not touching. I'll concede I may have been wrong about that but still stand by the premise that you should not be a US senator if you cannot avoid sexually harassing US citizens (joke or otherwise).

Quite right. Elected officials should conduct themselves in a manner which could never be construed as anything other than sheer professionalism.

Re: Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings

#29

Post by vorotato »

brucephillips wrote: post #24
vorotato wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I guess you're correct looking very closely it does appear he is merely making groping motions very close to her breasts. It changes it from sexual assault to sexual harassment which is still completely unacceptable. It still is not a behavior that any of our elected officials should be engaging in.

It's still not completely clear. I haven't been following this case specifically, so I don't know other details that may have come out, but there can easily be mitigating circumstances. Maybe they had a cat and mouse game going on all day, and she had been doing the same to him. Maybe he was merely reciprocating an inside joke. He wasn't her boss, so that sort of game wouldn't be a big deal. I'm sure this sounds to y…

They were on a work trip together as colleagues. If you're on a work trip, or any work event you don't make advances on your colleagues and you definitely don't make sexual jokes. IANAL but unwanted advances in the workplace constitutes sexual harassment, feigned groping jokes also count as sexual harassment. If she was making butt grope jokes at him she could similarly lose her job. It's a very bad idea all around and you shouldn't do it. Just because someone doesn't press charges because they're having fun with it doesn't mean you're not walking on insanely thin ice.

Re: Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings

#30

Post by brucephillips »

vorotato wrote: post #29
brucephillips wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still not completely clear. I haven't been following this case specifically, so I don't know other details that may have come out, but there can easily be mitigating circumstances. Maybe they had a cat and mouse game going on all day, and she had been doing the same to him. Maybe he was merely reciprocating an inside joke. He wasn't her boss, so that sort of game wouldn't be a big deal. I'm sure this sounds to y…

They were on a work trip together as colleagues. If you're on a work trip, or any work event you don't make advances on your colleagues and you definitely don't make sexual jokes. IANAL but unwanted advances in the workplace constitutes sexual harassment, feigned groping jokes also count as sexual harassment. If she was making butt grope jokes at him she could similarly lose her job. It's a very bad idea all around a…

> If you're on a work trip, or any work event you don't make advances on your colleagues and you definitely don't make sexual jokes.

Different cultures are different. Sex isn't inherently evil or even taboo. Military guys hit each other in the balls on a regular basis.

The only absolute here is that you shouldn't continue some behavior you know is unwelcome. It's entirely possible Franken was abiding by this rule.

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