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Fighting to Replace America’s Water Pipes

nytimes.com

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Re: Fighting to Replace America’s Water Pipes

#21

Post by stephengillie »

wernercd wrote: post #19
amelius wrote: post #9

While we're at it, can we put some extra fiber optic cables in the ground, and this time let the government own all of it?

Because the government should be trusted with that infrastructure/information and they won't become a bloated, red-tape laden mess? I think the majority of people agrees there needs to be changes in things... but putting "government" in charge of the backbone of the internet? Would definitely not a change for the better. Personally... I think there should be one of two rules: Companies can't own content AND infrastru…

Why do arguments like this continue to be made, despite many cities already having municipal broadband?

This anti-governmental prejudice is tiring. Governments are made of people - what makes you trust those people less than other people?

Re: Fighting to Replace America’s Water Pipes

#22

Post by bjarnsson »

amelius wrote: post #9

While we're at it, can we put some extra fiber optic cables in the ground, and this time let the government own all of it?

Exactly. All that is required is that they lay the fiber and set up the cabinets, and let a regulated free market of ISPs do all the OSI layers above. It doesn’t have to be a government run ISP.

Even just laying conduit (layer 0?) would be an amazing public service.

Re: Fighting to Replace America’s Water Pipes

#23

Post by amelius »

wernercd wrote: post #19
amelius wrote: post #9

While we're at it, can we put some extra fiber optic cables in the ground, and this time let the government own all of it?

Because the government should be trusted with that infrastructure/information and they won't become a bloated, red-tape laden mess? I think the majority of people agrees there needs to be changes in things... but putting "government" in charge of the backbone of the internet? Would definitely not a change for the better. Personally... I think there should be one of two rules: Companies can't own content AND infrastru…

The internet was practically invented by government institutions. Companies turned it into a mess.

Re: Fighting to Replace America’s Water Pipes

#24

Post by droro »

maxerickson wrote: post #11
nlperguiy wrote: post #3

There are limits to growth. The infrastructure bubble is cracking. No one was there to think through the long term investment in infrastructure. The prices have skyrocketed due to regulation and now the government can't pay for all that regulated work. Similar thing will happen in EU. Pipes are failing all across the western world.

Our ability to produce material goods (even in the supposedly hollowed out US manufacturing sector) really is greater than at any time in history. We aren't crashing into any growth limit when it comes to infrastructure. The problem is that taxes have been cut and costs like pensions have gone up (both in absolute terms from things like favorable contracts and life expectancy and in relative terms because of the tax…

Our ability to produce manufactured goods has very little to do with our ability to build infrastructure.

Construction productivity in the U.S. is actually DROPPING:

https://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/08/daily-...

https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/capital-projects-and-inf...

http://harvardcgbc.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Wang_2Page...

Re: Fighting to Replace America’s Water Pipes

#25

Post by wernercd »

stephengillie wrote: post #21
wernercd wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the government should be trusted with that infrastructure/information and they won't become a bloated, red-tape laden mess? I think the majority of people agrees there needs to be changes in things... but putting "government" in charge of the backbone of the internet? Would definitely not a change for the better. Personally... I think there should be one of two rules: Companies can't own content AND infrastru…

Why do arguments like this continue to be made, despite many cities already having municipal broadband? This anti-governmental prejudice is tiring. Governments are made of people - what makes you trust those people less than other people?

Because, by and large, I don't trust people?

I love my country and for the most part trust the Government... but on the same token - you'd have to be blind not to see how inefficient they are compared to private organizations (IE: Post Office compared to FedEx. Private Hospitals compared to the VA.)

You'd also have to be blind to not see blatant growth and abuses of privileges. The ACA growing government meddling in healthcare. Snowden - and similar - releases showing abuses. Daily revelations about different groups abusing their privileges.

"Arguments like this" continue to be made because examples are PLENTIFUL of how inefficient, self serving and abusive large organizations get. The same can be said of Unions - which are great in some aspects... horrible in others.

Re: Fighting to Replace America’s Water Pipes

#26

Post by wernercd »

amelius wrote: post #23
wernercd wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the government should be trusted with that infrastructure/information and they won't become a bloated, red-tape laden mess? I think the majority of people agrees there needs to be changes in things... but putting "government" in charge of the backbone of the internet? Would definitely not a change for the better. Personally... I think there should be one of two rules: Companies can't own content AND infrastru…

The internet was practically invented by government institutions. Companies turned it into a mess.

Government regulation and abuse has no part in the mess?

To say "companies" have blame and "government" doesn't?

That's... interesting...

And Government may have helped get the ball rolling but they didn't get us to where we are today alone - and if they were the only ones in charge, we wouldn't be where we are today.

Re: Fighting to Replace America’s Water Pipes

#27

Post by twobyfour »

Spooky23 wrote: post #15

Many of these stories are ginned up a bit, as they are PR for civil engineer societies. My wife worked for a water utility in an old city. Outside her bosses office was a lined wooden pipe that had been in place since 1680 or so, and was removed during a construction project. Unless the pipes are riveted, they have a surprisingly long service life, and techniques exist to spot at risk pipes and even make some repairs…

Tell that to the kids in Flint, Michigan who got sick because the city's water pipes were too old (and the city wasn't willing to pay for appropriate water treatment to account for that). Or the ones in NYC who have been drinking from lead-laced school fountains.

And those 500 year old wood pipes may still work, but they probably leak like sieves. NYC, for instance, loses billions of gallons a year to leaks in the pair of hundred year old water tunnels it can't afford to shut down for repair, and more from leaks in iron water mains all over the city.

The US northeast arguably can afford to waste that much water. Many parts of the world can't.

Re: Fighting to Replace America’s Water Pipes

#28

Post by rayiner »

stephengillie wrote: post #21
wernercd wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the government should be trusted with that infrastructure/information and they won't become a bloated, red-tape laden mess? I think the majority of people agrees there needs to be changes in things... but putting "government" in charge of the backbone of the internet? Would definitely not a change for the better. Personally... I think there should be one of two rules: Companies can't own content AND infrastru…

Why do arguments like this continue to be made, despite many cities already having municipal broadband? This anti-governmental prejudice is tiring. Governments are made of people - what makes you trust those people less than other people?

Because for the most part my internet works, while my subway catches on fire regularly?

Re: Fighting to Replace America’s Water Pipes

#29

Post by [deleted] »

stephengillie wrote: post #21
wernercd wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the government should be trusted with that infrastructure/information and they won't become a bloated, red-tape laden mess? I think the majority of people agrees there needs to be changes in things... but putting "government" in charge of the backbone of the internet? Would definitely not a change for the better. Personally... I think there should be one of two rules: Companies can't own content AND infrastru…

Why do arguments like this continue to be made, despite many cities already having municipal broadband? This anti-governmental prejudice is tiring. Governments are made of people - what makes you trust those people less than other people?

[deleted]

Re: Fighting to Replace America’s Water Pipes

#30

Post by maxerickson »

droro wrote: post #24
maxerickson wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our ability to produce material goods (even in the supposedly hollowed out US manufacturing sector) really is greater than at any time in history. We aren't crashing into any growth limit when it comes to infrastructure. The problem is that taxes have been cut and costs like pensions have gone up (both in absolute terms from things like favorable contracts and life expectancy and in relative terms because of the tax…

Our ability to produce manufactured goods has very little to do with our ability to build infrastructure. Construction productivity in the U.S. is actually DROPPING: https://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/08/daily-... https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/capital-projects-and-inf... http://harvardcgbc.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Wang_2Page...

Right, but per worker productivity in the construction industry isn't a growth limit (the claim I was addressing), it is something else.
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