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Telegram Isn't for Sale

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Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#21

Post by WA »

mrwong wrote: post #12
IBalic wrote: post #8

> A lot of people in the western world don’t realize how much taxes limit their options. You can end up paying almost half your income in taxes, which basically means you’re working for the government for 180 days a year. I think I can find better ways to use the money I make for the benefit of society. ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government. I respect different stands on the size/role of the gover…

Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70%. Beeing a software engineer in germany means that you code 8months for the government and 4months for yourself. The western governments introduced more and more “hidden” taxes. So just looking at income tax is not fair. Just because he advocates for lower taxes doesn’t mean he want anarchy.

70%? How do you come up with that?

It's roughly 40.5% for most middle class people. If your salary is 4,000€ per month, you get wired 2,380€ to your bank account. Income tax, social security contributions, retirement contributions etc. already deducted.

You could add 19% VAT for all purchases on your tax burden, but that's not 70%.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#22

Post by kachurovskiy »

mrwong wrote: post #12
IBalic wrote: post #8

> A lot of people in the western world don’t realize how much taxes limit their options. You can end up paying almost half your income in taxes, which basically means you’re working for the government for 180 days a year. I think I can find better ways to use the money I make for the benefit of society. ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government. I respect different stands on the size/role of the gover…

Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70%. Beeing a software engineer in germany means that you code 8months for the government and 4months for yourself. The western governments introduced more and more “hidden” taxes. So just looking at income tax is not fair. Just because he advocates for lower taxes doesn’t mean he want anarchy.

34% for a family with one child in Munich, 30.5% on capital gains.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#23

Post by krrrh »

_s wrote: post #17
mrwong wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70%. Beeing a software engineer in germany means that you code 8months for the government and 4months for yourself. The western governments introduced more and more “hidden” taxes. So just looking at income tax is not fair. Just because he advocates for lower taxes doesn’t mean he want anarchy.

> Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70%. Beeing a software engineer in germany means that you code 8months for the government and 4months for yourself. > The western governments introduced more and more “hidden” taxes. So just looking at income tax is not fair. Please don't pluck figures like that out of thin air - I worked in Berlin as a developer and I easily took home ~60% of my monthly salary (pl…

You’re not counting VAT which is 19% of most of what you purchase. Corporate tax is largely bundled into consumer prices as well, and depending on your consumption patterns, and transportations choices there are other taxes that apply. In no way is this list exhaustive.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#24

Post by pavlov »

baybal2 wrote: post #13
IBalic wrote: post #8

> A lot of people in the western world don’t realize how much taxes limit their options. You can end up paying almost half your income in taxes, which basically means you’re working for the government for 180 days a year. I think I can find better ways to use the money I make for the benefit of society. ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government. I respect different stands on the size/role of the gover…

That point is totally valid. "The West" is rapidly becoming a mirror image of the Soviet Union. With half or more of economic value of your work going to uncle Sam, how this is not a state ran economy? If I remember correctly, the split for a typical Soviet citizen was 60/40, and this is where the West will be this decade if government expenses will continue rising at the speed they do.

Comparing tax rates with the Soviet Union is totally meaningless because the economy was fundamentally supply-limited.

It’s not that people didn’t have money — they didn’t have anything to buy that they actually wanted. The same applied to the government-owned businesses. The economy was flush with rubles that everyone desperately wanted to spend on something. The tax rate was just optics.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#25

Post by nickik »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #19
baybal2 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That point is totally valid. "The West" is rapidly becoming a mirror image of the Soviet Union. With half or more of economic value of your work going to uncle Sam, how this is not a state ran economy? If I remember correctly, the split for a typical Soviet citizen was 60/40, and this is where the West will be this decade if government expenses will continue rising at the speed they do.

Top marginal income tax rates under President Eisenhower (a Republican) were in the low 90%s. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/nov/...

This is a total BS argument. Nobody ever payed these taxes. Its far more accurate to look at what part of the GDP the government is spending. That number was the further back you go.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#26

Post by ekianjo »

IBalic wrote: post #8

> A lot of people in the western world don’t realize how much taxes limit their options. You can end up paying almost half your income in taxes, which basically means you’re working for the government for 180 days a year. I think I can find better ways to use the money I make for the benefit of society. ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government. I respect different stands on the size/role of the gover…

> ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government.

Nice Strawman. So complaining about high taxes means you are either for or against having a government?

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#27

Post by Tomte »

mrwong wrote: post #12
IBalic wrote: post #8

> A lot of people in the western world don’t realize how much taxes limit their options. You can end up paying almost half your income in taxes, which basically means you’re working for the government for 180 days a year. I think I can find better ways to use the money I make for the benefit of society. ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government. I respect different stands on the size/role of the gover…

Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70%. Beeing a software engineer in germany means that you code 8months for the government and 4months for yourself. The western governments introduced more and more “hidden” taxes. So just looking at income tax is not fair. Just because he advocates for lower taxes doesn’t mean he want anarchy.

> Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70%

Even under a charitable interpretation this is simply wrong.

I suppose you have no first-hand experience, but have read that on social media?

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#28

Post by GeneralTspoon »

_s wrote: post #17
mrwong wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70%. Beeing a software engineer in germany means that you code 8months for the government and 4months for yourself. The western governments introduced more and more “hidden” taxes. So just looking at income tax is not fair. Just because he advocates for lower taxes doesn’t mean he want anarchy.

> Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70%. Beeing a software engineer in germany means that you code 8months for the government and 4months for yourself. > The western governments introduced more and more “hidden” taxes. So just looking at income tax is not fair. Please don't pluck figures like that out of thin air - I worked in Berlin as a developer and I easily took home ~60% of my monthly salary (pl…

I imagine that he/she is also including VAT in that 70% figure (which I believe is currently 23% in Germany).

In Munich my taxes on my pay check were around 45% as a software dev (including pension & insurance). So 70% total tax might not be far off the mark (assuming that you spend most of your income on VAT goods & services). Although you have to remember it's not 23% of your totoal income, but 23% of the remaining 55%.

There are also other hidden taxes though - import duty, corporation tax and council tax (cant remember if that was a thing in Germany), to name a few.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#29

Post by ekianjo »

pavlov wrote: post #14
IBalic wrote: post #8

> A lot of people in the western world don’t realize how much taxes limit their options. You can end up paying almost half your income in taxes, which basically means you’re working for the government for 180 days a year. I think I can find better ways to use the money I make for the benefit of society. ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government. I respect different stands on the size/role of the gover…

I don’t know where the author grew up, but didn’t he get anything in return for his taxes? I’ve had free healthcare, free college education, free libraries, police and fire departments protecting me, occasional grants, a social security network in case I lost my ability to work... I would never say that “taxes limit my options” because the personal record shows the opposite. Besides, it’s not about just me: the whole…

> Besides, it’s not about just me: the whole point of taxes is that it gives options to everyone, not just those lucky enough to be born to wealthy parents.

Then how does this thinking fit with the reality of taxes increasing everywhere, year after year? Does that mean that services are getting better? Because you know, it's actually the opposite. It's getting worse: more and more illiteracy in schools, inflation of degrees that don't get you any job, more unemployment (or stagnant at best), healthcare with less and less services... etc.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#30

Post by maelito »

IBalic wrote: post #8

> A lot of people in the western world don’t realize how much taxes limit their options. You can end up paying almost half your income in taxes, which basically means you’re working for the government for 180 days a year. I think I can find better ways to use the money I make for the benefit of society. ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government. I respect different stands on the size/role of the gover…

Here in France, lots of people don't do the difference between the taxes that go to the government, and the social security deductions. Calling the latter "taxes" is wrong. Most of it pays for your retirement and your health problems.
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