The world's most toxic value system (2001) • Hacker News Board

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#21

Post by neuralzen » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:24 AM UTC

georgewsinger wrote: post #3

> Created 19 November 2001, Last Update 30 August 2011 Looks like this was created right after 9/11. It's understandable why he wrote this. > It's considered bad form in many circles to criticize another culture's values. In addition, the social science literature contains a number of rationalizations for the "honor" mentality. One is that every value system makes sense to the people that hold it. Another is that eve…

Sam Harris has a great book called "The Moral Landscape" on this very subject, of toxic social values and how morality relates to the purging of such values. There's also a Tedtalk he gives, which essentially explores this idea.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#22

Post by bryananderson » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:24 AM UTC

georgewsinger wrote: post #3

> Created 19 November 2001, Last Update 30 August 2011 Looks like this was created right after 9/11. It's understandable why he wrote this. > It's considered bad form in many circles to criticize another culture's values. In addition, the social science literature contains a number of rationalizations for the "honor" mentality. One is that every value system makes sense to the people that hold it. Another is that eve…

Something this author gets that most people (of all political stripes) don’t: whether a culture is “better” than another is not even a well-formed question.

We must ask “better at what?” We must define some criteria to measure, and speak in those terms, not in ill-defined terms like “just better”.

The author speaks mostly in terms of specific consequences of different value systems. This is not the same thing as declaring a culture (usually the speaker’s own) to be “better” in some ill-defined way.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#23

Post by yorwba » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:26 AM UTC

narrator wrote: post #5

I would describe the "honor" system as like treating the world like a big MMORPG where the only goal in life is to accumulate "honor" points. The whole point of life is to grind away everyday to gain more honor points. Someone insults you = lose honor points. Revenge on the insulter = gain honor points. Wife cheats on you = lose honor points. Revenge on wife = gain honor points. Someone cheats you out of 10 cents = l…

You could replace "honor" by any other kind of value system and you could still interpret is as a points system. That's because of the Von Neumann-Morgenstern theorem [1], which basically says that any kind of well-behaved (i.e., not self-contradictory) preferences can be modeled as a points system (called utility function).

Heaven points. Money points. Sex points. Altruism points. Whatever you are trying to achieve in life, it can be reduced to a points system.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann%E2%80%93Morgenster...

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#24

Post by threatofrain » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:28 AM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #10

There are a lot of works on the relative impact of honor or shame cultures. I was first exposed to that concept by some of the works of Roland Muller ( http://www.rmuller.com/ ). The thesis that is favored by Christian theology is that Jesus taught forgiveness as the word of God rather than retribution (eye for an eye) which has been the prevailing response, and in so doing changed cultures that had been stagnant for…

I also anecdotally find that value of honor impairs conversation because it distracts people with shame-management and it makes criticism a matter of face.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#25

Post by narrator » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:29 AM UTC

yorwba wrote: post #23

narrator wrote: post #5

I would describe the "honor" system as like treating the world like a big MMORPG where the only goal in life is to accumulate "honor" points. The whole point of life is to grind away everyday to gain more honor points. Someone insults you = lose honor points. Revenge on the insulter = gain honor points. Wife cheats on you = lose honor points. Revenge on wife = gain honor points. Someone cheats you out of 10 cents = l…

You could replace "honor" by any other kind of value system and you could still interpret is as a points system. That's because of the Von Neumann-Morgenstern theorem [1], which basically says that any kind of well-behaved (i.e., not self-contradictory) preferences can be modeled as a points system (called utility function ). Heaven points. Money points. Sex points. Altruism points. Whatever you are trying to achieve…

Well let's say that someone criticizes a "honor" system person for being violent. Someone interested in the truth would not react violently to that criticism because they would acknowledge that as a contradiction and that doing so would prove their critic correct. Someone only interested in "honor" points would react violently toward the critic because that's how you get "honor" points, by getting revenge for insults. The person interested in the truth can recognize a flaw in their fitness function. The person only interested in "honor" points never questions the rules. Their is no procedure to question the rules in the "honor" points system just as a computer is unable to question its programming.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#26

Post by leohutson » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:29 AM UTC

georgewsinger wrote: post #3

> Created 19 November 2001, Last Update 30 August 2011 Looks like this was created right after 9/11. It's understandable why he wrote this. > It's considered bad form in many circles to criticize another culture's values. In addition, the social science literature contains a number of rationalizations for the "honor" mentality. One is that every value system makes sense to the people that hold it. Another is that eve…

It's illogical to make value judgements about cultures, there is no objective way to do it. What makes one culture "better" than another? Survival? Virality? Honor? Piousness? Lawfulness? Every culture values these things differently.

Calling it politically correct shows your own failing to comprehend something outside of your own cultural frame of reference.

Notably I could make the same point about morality as the author makes about honor, as it is just another social construct.

Morality holds individuals back from getting what they want, instead they go around accumulating morality points even when no one powerful is watching. Clearly anyone who respects morality as a cultural value is PC wuss.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#27

Post by aaron-lebo » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:38 AM UTC

leohutson wrote: post #26

georgewsinger wrote: post #3

> Created 19 November 2001, Last Update 30 August 2011 Looks like this was created right after 9/11. It's understandable why he wrote this. > It's considered bad form in many circles to criticize another culture's values. In addition, the social science literature contains a number of rationalizations for the "honor" mentality. One is that every value system makes sense to the people that hold it. Another is that eve…

It's illogical to make value judgements about cultures, there is no objective way to do it. What makes one culture "better" than another? Survival? Virality? Honor? Piousness? Lawfulness? Every culture values these things differently. Calling it politically correct shows your own failing to comprehend something outside of your own cultural frame of reference. Notably I could make the same point about morality as the…

It's not "illogical" to say that a culture which executes homosexuals is inferior (in that aspect) to ones that don't. You can argue about the standard, but it's straightforward and logical.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#28

Post by leohutson » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:40 AM UTC

bryananderson wrote: post #22

georgewsinger wrote: post #3

> Created 19 November 2001, Last Update 30 August 2011 Looks like this was created right after 9/11. It's understandable why he wrote this. > It's considered bad form in many circles to criticize another culture's values. In addition, the social science literature contains a number of rationalizations for the "honor" mentality. One is that every value system makes sense to the people that hold it. Another is that eve…

Something this author gets that most people (of all political stripes) don’t: whether a culture is “better” than another is not even a well-formed question. We must ask “better at what?” We must define some criteria to measure, and speak in those terms, not in ill-defined terms like “just better”. The author speaks mostly in terms of specific consequences of different value systems. This is not the same thing as decl…

I don't think the author grasps it either, especially when he uses morality as an outcome rather than just another cultural value. Assessing the quality of the outcome requires a cultural perspective itself, and even if from that cultures perspective the outcome is poor, the values that the culture would have to change may be worse.

If my culture does not accept that slavery is acceptable, but is aware that it will be wiped out by the cultures that do allow it, and chooses that fate, my culture is not inferior for doing so from my perspective.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#29

Post by linkregister » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:40 AM UTC

andrewjl wrote: post #14

Declanomous wrote: post #7

This is interesting. At the risk of being lambasted for this view, I've often felt that this is the issue with a lot of places within the United States. For instance, I've always considered personal interactions in the South to be largely dictated by honor. I do not think it is coincidental that the poorest and least-educated areas of the country are the same area. I think a similar problem is at play in inner-city v…

True Detective Season 1 is a very deep, nuanced study of exactly what you describe in the South.

I agree with Aaron, the major themes of the show were decline and depravity. All of the main characters were self-destructive. Honor and pride had little to do with the series.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#30

Post by cobbzilla » Tue, Nov 28, 2017, 5:42 AM UTC

This article, while interesting, is incredibly presumptive and totally non-scientific. As such, I consider it pablum.

Surely no one culture is universally "better" than another. Pick some metric(s), some cultures will be better, some worse.

What's left unstated and undefended in this article is the metric for comparing the "goodness" of cultures. With that, at least we would have some quantitative things to compare -- then one could respectfully disagree on the metric, or offer alternate evidence for calculating the metric, or offer other metrics to consider.