Dopamine: An AI platform for designing human behavior • Hacker News Board

Re: Dopamine: An AI platform for designing human behavior

#21

Post by atsushin » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 4:17 AM UTC

013a wrote: post #9

The same company sells an api to help make your applications as addicting as possible [1] and a service for users to help control their addiction to applications [2]. This organization is disgusting and is evidence enough that our industry has no sense of ethical responsibility. When massive regulation lands on Silicon Valley and we whine about the impact it has on innovation, remember companies like Dopamine Labs wh…

Their Dopamine service seems much more heinous and detrimental, especially in a society where many social media application's algorithms tailor user's experiences to accustom and promote each individual's personal beliefs for the sake of ad revenue. I imagine the truly unethical could take advantage of this service and develop applications which leverage what our SM platforms are doing currently, and make quite a lot of revenue as a result.

Re: Dopamine: An AI platform for designing human behavior

#22

Post by sitkack » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 4:38 AM UTC

Hire these guys for TV! I wish them success, all the big players are doing the same thing with more people. Keep on innovating, disrupting. Here is to your next cache hit.

Re: Dopamine: An AI platform for designing human behavior

#23

Post by sitkack » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 4:39 AM UTC

tw1010 wrote: post #20

Gee, the founders can't have been happy with that title (different than on HN). What can founders do to avoid being represented in a negative light like this by the press, HN? Try to be the first to frame the conversation? Or is all press good press and it doesn't matter?

They just got a ton of press, reaching the exact markets they want to hit. Their fax machine is probably ringing off the hook right now.

Re: Dopamine: An AI platform for designing human behavior

#24

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 4:54 AM UTC

The originator of this project discussed in brief on HN a few months back, and I assume is reading this thread.

The reactions here could tell you that this is a really Bad Idea. Working or investing in this is a terrible choice and will forfeit baseline level of consideration you could normally expect from other people.

Re: Dopamine: An AI platform for designing human behavior

#25

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 4:55 AM UTC

TimTheTinker wrote: post #19

013a wrote: post #9

The same company sells an api to help make your applications as addicting as possible [1] and a service for users to help control their addiction to applications [2]. This organization is disgusting and is evidence enough that our industry has no sense of ethical responsibility. When massive regulation lands on Silicon Valley and we whine about the impact it has on innovation, remember companies like Dopamine Labs wh…

To be fair, all the case studies they list [1] utilized their service to improve users' personal habits -- diet, exercise, etc. Behavior shaping isn't necessarily morally wrong to use, though companies like Facebook and Google are almost completely incentivized to use them against users. [1] http://www.usedopamine.com/assets/pdf/Dopamine%20Labs%20Case...

Well, yeah. They'd be idiots to present it any other way.

Re: Dopamine: An AI platform for designing human behavior

#26

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 4:58 AM UTC

nrjames wrote: post #6

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #4

I am just waiting for a lawyer for someone with Internet Addiction ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3480687/ ) to sue this company over one of their supported apps. This is the kind of thing that I fear will prompt a backlash from the people and government and destroy the entire online ads regime that underpins the current Internet.

You may not have noticed that their other product is the exact opposite. Maybe that gives them some legal protection? http://youjustneedspace.com/

'Nice free will you have there. Be a shame if someone manipulated it.'

Re: Dopamine: An AI platform for designing human behavior

#27

Post by AndrewKemendo » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 5:42 AM UTC

BayesStreet wrote: post #17

api wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A casino is usually more profitable than a hospital too. It's probably the central problem of capitalism. Monetary systems draw no distinction between wealth creation and wealth extraction, and the second law of thermodynamics guarantees that the latter will always be much easier. When you design chips, cure diseases, or build rockets you are fighting entropy. When you addict, misinform, and con people entropy is on…

This article made me pretty sad and made me think of this too. I think what an ethical investor needs to do is not deploy capital to any industries that don't add real economic value or wealth or whatever you want to call it. Also, ethical founders should refuse capital from orgs that fund these projects. Basically starve these projects out, but that's sort of idealistic.

don't add real economic value or wealth or whatever you want to call it.

Literally an impossible thing to measure because it's subjective. If it makes money is adds wealth so by your standard anything goes.

Re: Dopamine: An AI platform for designing human behavior

#28

Post by RAB1138 » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 5:57 AM UTC

Hi!

Founder (Brown) here. Appreciate the traffic!

Also, would love to clear up mob misconceptions about:

-Why did we pick lightening-rod branding?

-Why was this the most humanitarian use of a neuroscience MS/PhD?

-What quality of people must we be to do this?

-What is design's ethical imperative that, 100 years ago when most died of infections diseases, that this year the majority of people over 50 will die of strongly behavioral-based diseases? [1]

-How come the Founders of the Push Notification teams aren't part of the cultural dialogue?

-What does Tristan Harris think?!

-What is our pricing model and can your startup get a discount? (YES!)

[1] soundcloud.com/digital-mindfulness/89-the-science-of-addictive-technology-with-ramsay-brown/s-YQzyZ

Re: Dopamine: An AI platform for designing human behavior

#29

Post by RAB1138 » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 6:02 AM UTC

BayesStreet wrote: post #8

>Dopamine’s founders argue that they reserve the right to deny service to specific companies whose work seems to be off the level... Just "trust" us. There are obviously many teams working on doing this, but never so audacious. These things are definitely not a value add to society, yet very profitable, like e.g. heroin if that doesn't sound too hyperbolic.

Happy to answer any questions you have! It's all of our job to be transparent about the new tablestakes of design, because that transparency builds exact dialogues like this! It would be more audacious if we didn't publicize what we're doing and these techniques remained the dark patterns that keep people hooked to social apps that have poor alignment to what people actually want out of life!

Re: Dopamine: An AI platform for designing human behavior

#30

Post by RAB1138 » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 6:03 AM UTC

dontreact wrote: post #2

Even if the aims are benevolent, the naming and marketing copy just sound evil to me. They are trying to make it sound like they can turn your app into an addictive drug.

Contrarian, not evil, is more of the motto. You don't get anyone to listen if you just talk about an AI SaaS platform for long-term habit formation. It comes off as wonkish. Trust me, we tried ;)