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Returning to analog and putting digital in its place

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Re: Returning to analog and putting digital in its place

#21

Post by otakucode »

Does the author have children... or pets? Because it doesn't sound like he acknowledges his children as people at all. Perhaps the reason the children resort to screens is because it's the only way he's made possible for them to have any degree of autonomy or independence? He makes it clear that he walks around the neighborhood WITH them, he goes to visit their friends from school WITH them, etc. The reason many kids don't like to go outside isn't because outside isn't interesting - it's because the parents expect to go WITH them.

Back. Off. The kids are 8, 11, and 13. The 8 year old might still need some hand-holding, but the 11 and 13 year old should be developing independence and autonomy and figuring out who they are going to be. They're PEOPLE.

Re: Returning to analog and putting digital in its place

#22

Post by otakucode »

folksinger wrote: post #20
al2o3cr wrote: post #2

Quick, what goes in the blank? The free access which many young people have to *BLANK* has poisoned the mind and corrupted the morals of many a promising youth; and prevented others from improving their minds in useful knowledge. Parents take care to feed their children with wholesome diet; and yet how unconcerned about the provision for the mind, whether they are furnished with salutary food, or with trash, chaff, o…

How is it bad advice to avoid gorging the mind and body on garbage, no matter the technology at one's disposal? Reading an awful novel to avoid the people or duties in your life is clearly as bad as using Twitter for the same reason. Your argument is basically: "Don't make me think about the ethics of my actions, regardless of the calendar year."

That's not the advice. The advice is 'avoid this particular form of expression/communication' with the 'garbage' aspect only tossed in as an intellectually bankrupt attempt to form negative associations in the mind of uncritical readers with the form discussed.

Re: Returning to analog and putting digital in its place

#23

Post by tonmoy »

al2o3cr wrote: post #2

Quick, what goes in the blank? The free access which many young people have to *BLANK* has poisoned the mind and corrupted the morals of many a promising youth; and prevented others from improving their minds in useful knowledge. Parents take care to feed their children with wholesome diet; and yet how unconcerned about the provision for the mind, whether they are furnished with salutary food, or with trash, chaff, o…

It was thought in the 1850s that chess would destroy the minds of young generations

https://medium.com/message/why-chess-will-destroy-your-mind-...

Re: Returning to analog and putting digital in its place

#24

Post by otakucode »

monocasa wrote: post #15
al2o3cr wrote: post #2

Quick, what goes in the blank? The free access which many young people have to *BLANK* has poisoned the mind and corrupted the morals of many a promising youth; and prevented others from improving their minds in useful knowledge. Parents take care to feed their children with wholesome diet; and yet how unconcerned about the provision for the mind, whether they are furnished with salutary food, or with trash, chaff, o…

Socrates went into a similar rant on the written word in general. > [Writing] will create forgetfulness in the learners’ souls, because they will not use their memories; they will trust to the external written characters and not remember of themselves. The specific which you have discovered is an aid not to memory, but to reminiscence, and you give your disciples not truth, but only the semblance of truth; they will…

John Philip Souza said that recorded music would destroy music, as amateur musicians would be so disheartened by hearing the performances of virtuosos that they would feel any practice would be futile. He also described a person listening to music by themselves as a sort of craven masturbation, using great imagery to have people imagine an emaciated antisocial hollow person curled up next to a phonograph.

Next up: VR is craven masturbation, and the increased immersion will turn children into psychopathic killers incapable of human kindness!

Re: Returning to analog and putting digital in its place

#25

Post by nathan_long »

al2o3cr wrote: post #2

Quick, what goes in the blank? The free access which many young people have to *BLANK* has poisoned the mind and corrupted the morals of many a promising youth; and prevented others from improving their minds in useful knowledge. Parents take care to feed their children with wholesome diet; and yet how unconcerned about the provision for the mind, whether they are furnished with salutary food, or with trash, chaff, o…

> it was gauche in 1790 and it hasn't improved with age

You imply, but give no evidence, that the writer in 1790 was wrong. Maybe the young people in question were poisoning their minds. The fact that a quote is Old Timey™ doesn't make it wrong.

Do you not believe that art and literature have the capacity to change the audience? That is the stated goal of much of it. And if it has that power, wouldn't you be careful what you allow to shape you?

As far as digital media, there is at least some evidence that screen time can be harmful.

> The Monitoring the Future survey, funded by the National Institute on Drug Abuse and designed to be nationally representative, has asked 12th-graders more than 1,000 questions every year since 1975 and queried eighth- and 10th-graders since 1991. The survey asks teens how happy they are and also how much of their leisure time they spend on various activities, including nonscreen activities such as in-person social interaction and exercise, and, in recent years, screen activities such as using social media, texting, and browsing the web. The results could not be clearer: Teens who spend more time than average on screen activities are more likely to be unhappy, and those who spend more time than average on nonscreen activities are more likely to be happy. -- https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/has-the...

Re: Returning to analog and putting digital in its place

#26

Post by folksinger »

otakucode wrote: post #22
folksinger wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it bad advice to avoid gorging the mind and body on garbage, no matter the technology at one's disposal? Reading an awful novel to avoid the people or duties in your life is clearly as bad as using Twitter for the same reason. Your argument is basically: "Don't make me think about the ethics of my actions, regardless of the calendar year."

That's not the advice. The advice is 'avoid this particular form of expression/communication' with the 'garbage' aspect only tossed in as an intellectually bankrupt attempt to form negative associations in the mind of uncritical readers with the form discussed.

Speaking of uncritical readers, you clearly didn't read the same article as I did.

Re: Returning to analog and putting digital in its place

#27

Post by Aloha »

otakucode wrote: post #21

Does the author have children... or pets? Because it doesn't sound like he acknowledges his children as people at all. Perhaps the reason the children resort to screens is because it's the only way he's made possible for them to have any degree of autonomy or independence? He makes it clear that he walks around the neighborhood WITH them, he goes to visit their friends from school WITH them, etc. The reason many kids…

I'm a child of the 90's, I'll preface this with that.

The problem isn't the freedom from the screen - its the societal expectation that parents need to go outside with their children, and that children cannot be left alone for a fear of the unknown.

At 8, I spent hours away from adults, I listened to the radio, to music, read books, spent time with my cohorts - at age 10-11-12 - I was riding my bike miles from home alone - and this was in the age before kids had cellphones too, I always carried change for a payphone, and had phone numbers for my mom at work, and my grandparents (who lived about 6 miles away) memorized.

I see nothing wrong with reducing to eliminating screen time - digital devices are pervasive and have a stunting effect on socialization and people skills (in my opinion) - the issue is, is the presumption that children shouldn't otherwise be left alone unsupervised.

Re: Returning to analog and putting digital in its place

#28

Post by mwcampbell »

nathan_long wrote: post #25
al2o3cr wrote: post #2

Quick, what goes in the blank? The free access which many young people have to *BLANK* has poisoned the mind and corrupted the morals of many a promising youth; and prevented others from improving their minds in useful knowledge. Parents take care to feed their children with wholesome diet; and yet how unconcerned about the provision for the mind, whether they are furnished with salutary food, or with trash, chaff, o…

> it was gauche in 1790 and it hasn't improved with age You imply, but give no evidence, that the writer in 1790 was wrong. Maybe the young people in question were poisoning their minds. The fact that a quote is Old Timey™ doesn't make it wrong. Do you not believe that art and literature have the capacity to change the audience? That is the stated goal of much of it. And if it has that power, wouldn't you be careful…

You might have the causation backward, though. Maybe many teens spend so much time interacting with a screen because they're unhappy, not the other way around. Another top-level comment on this thread gives a possible reason: lack of autonomy.

Re: Returning to analog and putting digital in its place

#29

Post by nathan_long »

mwcampbell wrote: post #28
nathan_long wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it was gauche in 1790 and it hasn't improved with age You imply, but give no evidence, that the writer in 1790 was wrong. Maybe the young people in question were poisoning their minds. The fact that a quote is Old Timey™ doesn't make it wrong. Do you not believe that art and literature have the capacity to change the audience? That is the stated goal of much of it. And if it has that power, wouldn't you be careful…

You might have the causation backward, though. Maybe many teens spend so much time interacting with a screen because they're unhappy, not the other way around. Another top-level comment on this thread gives a possible reason: lack of autonomy.

Another quote from the same article, a paragraph or two later:

> Of course, these analyses don’t unequivocally prove that screen time causes unhappiness; it’s possible that unhappy teens spend more time online. But recent research suggests that screen time, in particular social-media use, does indeed cause unhappiness. One study asked college students with a Facebook page to complete short surveys on their phone over the course of two weeks. They’d get a text message with a link five times a day, and report on their mood and how much they’d used Facebook. The more they’d used Facebook, the unhappier they felt, but feeling unhappy did not subsequently lead to more Facebook use. -- https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/has-the...

Re: Returning to analog and putting digital in its place

#30

Post by nathan_long »

monocasa wrote: post #15
al2o3cr wrote: post #2

Quick, what goes in the blank? The free access which many young people have to *BLANK* has poisoned the mind and corrupted the morals of many a promising youth; and prevented others from improving their minds in useful knowledge. Parents take care to feed their children with wholesome diet; and yet how unconcerned about the provision for the mind, whether they are furnished with salutary food, or with trash, chaff, o…

Socrates went into a similar rant on the written word in general. > [Writing] will create forgetfulness in the learners’ souls, because they will not use their memories; they will trust to the external written characters and not remember of themselves. The specific which you have discovered is an aid not to memory, but to reminiscence, and you give your disciples not truth, but only the semblance of truth; they will…

If we had a time machine, it would be interesting to test the recall ability of Socrates and those of his ilk vs those who focused on written words. Perhaps there are indeed tradeoffs.
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