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Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

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Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#21

Post by jasonshen »

lr4444lr wrote: post #10

I'm not the biggest job-hopper, but I've worked at 3 companies in the last 5 years in the NYC area, and have never once worked with, known anyone who's once worked with, or knew a hiring manager who would even consider someone whose only significant background in software was a coding bootcamp. For those who've experienced it, are they hired out of desperation into firms that need manpower and have enough more senior…

All of the last 3 companies I've worked at in NYC (Percolate, Etsy, and a seed stage startup) have hired multiple engineers straight out of bootcamps. They often were hired into junior roles but if they proved themselves, they would advance. Bootcamp grads are hungry, they're usually taught how to code collaboratively and how to push code to production (skills that are usually less emphasized in CS curriculum). Bootcamps aren't going away and would imagine your experience will be less and less common over time.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#22

Post by ron22 »

Not sure I understand the misleading salary/job type part.

Flatirons full jobs report for 2017 is here: Online: https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/69751/2017%20Online%20Outcome...

Onsite: https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/69751/NYCJobsReport%20July%20...

Looks like these reports were made before the fine. Inside these reports, salary and job type are broken down and clearly stated.

Were these reports altered after the fact?

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#23

Post by projectramo »

ron22 wrote: post #22

Not sure I understand the misleading salary/job type part. Flatirons full jobs report for 2017 is here: Online: https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/69751/2017%20Online%20Outcome... Onsite: https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/69751/NYCJobsReport%20July%20... Looks like these reports were made before the fine. Inside these reports, salary and job type are broken down and clearly stated. Were these reports altered after the fact?

I had the same question when I saw those.

Before the fine is not before the investigation though.

They may have changed those as the investigation started and they got questions about the disclosure.

They may have fined them on the basis of the students who went through the program before they made the changes.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#24

Post by throwthisawayt »

ron22 wrote: post #22

Not sure I understand the misleading salary/job type part. Flatirons full jobs report for 2017 is here: Online: https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/69751/2017%20Online%20Outcome... Onsite: https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/69751/NYCJobsReport%20July%20... Looks like these reports were made before the fine. Inside these reports, salary and job type are broken down and clearly stated. Were these reports altered after the fact?

The fine is for the stats that were on places like their website. They didn't define the stats clearly on their site.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#25

Post by lloyd-christmas »

lr4444lr wrote: post #10

I'm not the biggest job-hopper, but I've worked at 3 companies in the last 5 years in the NYC area, and have never once worked with, known anyone who's once worked with, or knew a hiring manager who would even consider someone whose only significant background in software was a coding bootcamp. For those who've experienced it, are they hired out of desperation into firms that need manpower and have enough more senior…

My brother and I both took one. He's at Goldman Sachs, and I work for a company that builds medical software. I finished my course 3.5 years ago and 75% of my class are still working as developers. Major employers include Google, Conde Nast, JPM, GS. Most people work for mid/small size companies so they could get better mentorship than the corporate life.

I think one major issue people like you have is that they don't realize that most people who take these courses aren't baristas. My class average was late 20s with 5+ years of proven work experience, most frequently in high professions (law, medicine, finance). I worked in finance for 6 years. I didn't need to take "CS250" to be capable of learning data structures. I just did it on the job instead of over one semester. It's easy to train people who have a proven history of success at work. It is much harder to gamble on a 22 year old with no work experience, regardless of their degree. That's a pretty easy decision for many hiring managers.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#26

Post by eqmvii »

The shady employment outcome reporting issue mirrors a problem that has plagued law schools for years.

In the worst cases, all 200 or so U.S. law schools would boast about high percentages of students landing 6-figure starting salaries. In reality, schools often only disclosed statistics based on students who completed enrollment surveys.

https://www.lawschooltransparency.com came about as a resource to try to correct the record, but surely a lot of young people got swept up in the marketing only to discover the real outlook was much more grim.

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#28

Post by Dtrane »

throwthisawayt wrote: post #24
ron22 wrote: post #22

Not sure I understand the misleading salary/job type part. Flatirons full jobs report for 2017 is here: Online: https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/69751/2017%20Online%20Outcome... Onsite: https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/69751/NYCJobsReport%20July%20... Looks like these reports were made before the fine. Inside these reports, salary and job type are broken down and clearly stated. Were these reports altered after the fact?

The fine is for the stats that were on places like their website. They didn't define the stats clearly on their site.

These same stats are the only stats on their website and are only a few clicks from the homepage. I hope that somebody who goes through the entire process of applying to one of these does at least a little due diligence.

https://flatironschool.com/outcomes/

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#29

Post by iskander »

fredleblanc wrote: post #13
jefftk wrote: post #6

"Between January and June 2017, Flatiron claimed that 98.5% of its students received employment less than 180 days after graduation and that Flatiron graduates had an average salary of $74,447. However, Flatiron did not disclose clearly and conspicuously that the 98.5% employment rate included not only full time salaried employees but also apprentices, contract employees and self-employed freelance workers, some who…

Having done some work for a school that's jumped through these hoops, I believe that it's a different definition of "approved." It's not "choose one of these curricula we made up and do that," it's "show us your complete curriculum and defend how this makes a complete program."

The response times on approval can be pretty terrible and you get peppered with a lot of dumb requests by reviewers who don't actually understand the material.

(I grew up around my parents' vocational school, board of education interactions looked totally insane)

Re: Flatiron School settles for operating without license, employment/salary claims

#30

Post by [deleted] »

lr4444lr wrote: post #10

I'm not the biggest job-hopper, but I've worked at 3 companies in the last 5 years in the NYC area, and have never once worked with, known anyone who's once worked with, or knew a hiring manager who would even consider someone whose only significant background in software was a coding bootcamp. For those who've experienced it, are they hired out of desperation into firms that need manpower and have enough more senior…

[deleted]
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