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Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China

maxkle.in

21–30 of 122 posts

Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China

#21
post #6

having been in all three places, you should leave europe to start your company. but move to silicon valley instead.

I wish this were possible, but the difficulty in doing this is massive. If you are not U.S born, it's QUITE difficult to simply walk in and start a company in the U.S. And you'd spend a lot of time just solving those problems, and have a lot less time to setup your company. In comparison, I landed in china on thursday. Today is monday, and I have a fully furnished office (with furniture I selected myself), an assista…

    If you are not U.S born, it's 
    QUITE difficult to simply
    walk in and start a company
    in the U.S. And you'd spend 
    a lot of time just solving
    those problems, and have a lot 
    less time to setup your company.
Not only that, you might have a hard time even getting to the US in the first place, as one of the requirements for even getting a visa is to show that you have "sufficient ties" to you current country of residence (e.g. a job).

If they suspect you might try to immigrate you won't even get into the country.

Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China

#22
Is it at all possible to change the title from Europe to Germany. Most of his complaints are German specific and don't apply to everywhere in Europe.

Bureaucracy: I've heard regularly bad things about the German bundes. I've heard good things about UK, Sweden, Romania, Hungary.

Labor: Whether you get it here or there the price of labor is only going up, but in China it's going up faster. Programmers are expensive. I'm expensive. If a better offer comes along that you can't match or even come close to I'll be out the door faster than the computer can shutdown. (Of course with my 2 weeks-1 month notice first). Don't expect anything less from the chinese. I don't know what you are working but have you ever hired anyone straight out of college? Experience costs money and mistakes costs money. Just make sure the latter costs less than the former.

Costs and Taxes: Depending on the European country you may not pay any taxes on revenue while in the startup phase (generally 2 years). After that it's country specific, the rules that apply in Germany don't apply in the UK.

Travel: Maybe as a German these things don't matter to you, but, as an American, I find Europe to be fascinating, so many different cultures, so much history, and its all packed in one half continent. When I speak to other french or english friends about SE Asia it's generally "which beach should I visit this week?". Little interest in the culture, history, or the language (I love ordering food in thai, but that's all the thai I know). I think a lot of people have a very romantic idea of what SE Asia is about but that's it. Plus it's huge region, you need a plane to do all that traveling and those flights aren't short.

It looks like you've traded one set of problems for another. I don't know what the startup will ultimately be about but I wish you luck. Also be careful, lots of people have startup ideas that fizzle out, can't get funding, or can't get any promotion because it's not from the right place. One thing I've learned about a company is that it's the people you know as well as the idea that make it a success. If you are doing it in China, then have a chinese focus because no one in San Francisco is going to care about it, until it's too big to ignore.

Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China

#24
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish this were possible, but the difficulty in doing this is massive. If you are not U.S born, it's QUITE difficult to simply walk in and start a company in the U.S. And you'd spend a lot of time just solving those problems, and have a lot less time to setup your company. In comparison, I landed in china on thursday. Today is monday, and I have a fully furnished office (with furniture I selected myself), an assista…

while the Startup Visa is a good thing, it's still difficult for people (who are not born here or who don't possess a GC) to start a venture here. Even with the startup visa, there's a lot at stake and a lot of pressure to meet the demands about a certain $ of investment, turnover, operating capital, etc. Not every startup is going to fulfill those criteria right off the bat and the cost of failure is too high. That'…

Shenzhen is Hong Kong without the terrible apartment costs, but with slightly better internet.

Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China

#25

What I don't like in the article is the accent that is put on the advantages of the entrepreneur and little accent on the employee. It's great that you can fire people when you want, but it sucks if you're the one getting fired.

Create value and it will suck to fire you.

Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China

#26
post #21
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish this were possible, but the difficulty in doing this is massive. If you are not U.S born, it's QUITE difficult to simply walk in and start a company in the U.S. And you'd spend a lot of time just solving those problems, and have a lot less time to setup your company. In comparison, I landed in china on thursday. Today is monday, and I have a fully furnished office (with furniture I selected myself), an assista…

If you are not U.S born, it's QUITE difficult to simply walk in and start a company in the U.S. And you'd spend a lot of time just solving those problems, and have a lot less time to setup your company. Not only that, you might have a hard time even getting to the US in the first place, as one of the requirements for even getting a visa is to show that you have "sufficient ties" to you current country of residence (e…

If you are trying to immigrate to the US on a non-immigrant visa then hell yes they will put you through the wringer.

Do the proper paperwork and apply through the greencard lottery. There are plenty of empty spots for French and German greencard seekers. Since we share the same language the UK slots are perpetually full. Australians get a special immigration visa (R-1?) just for being awesome.

Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China

#27
The taxes that German paid go toward the social benefits that the German enjoy. What if you get sick in China? Who pay for the medical cost? When you are out of work in China, who pay for the unemployment benefit? The statement that students graduated from university being competent engineers is not truth. You will find turnovers to be very high.

You are just trading one set of problems with another. I'm sure it will be a fun adventure. Good luck.

Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China

#28
post #9

I really applaud your bold move and wish you the best of luck. But there is a lot of "the grass is always greener on the other side" mentality in this post, especially regarding personal freedoms and the bureaucracy/legal-system. I wonder how the example of your friend (getting sued for defamation) would have played out in China. How hard is it to hire good programmers in China? Does anyone have experience about what…

Does anyone have experience about what to expect for 600$ a month?

I am in favor of hiring outsourced Chinese programmers over Indian ones: it is possible to find ones with decent Japanese proficiency, which means that when Tokyo discovers the latest... curious engineering choice I don't have to spend a day doing the needful to communicate our displeasure about it.

We told our outsourced team to write four functions to be accessible via a REST service, using RestEasy. I anticipated this to be approximately a 20 ~ 30 line job. Two weeks later, we received a scratch-built HTTP client which supported precisely one verb and two handwritten serialization schemes, with half the code containing precisely one comment in English by way of Babelfish and the other half containing very literate English comments like you would expect from code developed at a multinational with a legal department better funded than the armed forces of of most NATO countries.

I pray your mileage varies.

Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China

#29

What I don't like in the article is the accent that is put on the advantages of the entrepreneur and little accent on the employee. It's great that you can fire people when you want, but it sucks if you're the one getting fired.

Why would you want to work for a place that wants to fire you but can't because of governmental regulation?

Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China

#30
post #22

Is it at all possible to change the title from Europe to Germany. Most of his complaints are German specific and don't apply to everywhere in Europe. Bureaucracy: I've heard regularly bad things about the German bundes. I've heard good things about UK, Sweden, Romania, Hungary. Labor: Whether you get it here or there the price of labor is only going up, but in China it's going up faster. Programmers are expensive. I'…

While I agree with you for Labor and Costs and Taxes, I beg to differ about the travel part. With all due respect, the knowledge you and your "french or english friends" have about Asia is obviously limited, and equating them to the culture and history of many Asian countries is ridiculous. It is like saying "what does Europe offer other than museums?"
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