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Boy Scouts Announce They Will Accept Girls

nytimes.com

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Re: Boy Scouts Announce They Will Accept Girls

#21

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

sciurus wrote: post #20
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #18

Boy scouts in the past was more about camping and activities. It was about self-improvement and learning how to be men. Now that purpose seems to be weakening. Men and women are different, both physically and psychologically[1]. Acting like those differences don't exist hurts everyone IMO. Sure, we should be accepting of aberrations from the norm, but that doesn't mean we should hurt the majority in the process. [1]…

What is it that Boy Scouts teaches that you don't think girls should be taught?

It's not that I don't think girls shouldn't be taught certain information, but it's rather a mindset that is taught. A group of boys being led by men can learn a mindset better suited for the mind of a man. With their greater testosterone, men have much more aggression an desire for status overall than women, and with guidance by a father figure, can learn to harness and focus that energy in a way a woman wouldn't be able to. I worry that in the pursuit of inclusion, that kind of mindset implanting will be lost.

Re: Boy Scouts Announce They Will Accept Girls

#22

Post by alehul »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #21
sciurus wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is it that Boy Scouts teaches that you don't think girls should be taught?

It's not that I don't think girls shouldn't be taught certain information, but it's rather a mindset that is taught. A group of boys being led by men can learn a mindset better suited for the mind of a man. With their greater testosterone, men have much more aggression an desire for status overall than women, and with guidance by a father figure, can learn to harness and focus that energy in a way a woman wouldn't be…

I agree with you on a scientific level, for example, that men have more testosterone and thus are more likely to be aggressive in their pursuits, which is often critical to success. At the same time, however, there are many men who are less aggressive and women who are more aggressive; broad averages aren't the perfect solution.

Couldn't we promote this 'aggressive' ideology as genderless? As long as we're clear about the Boy Scouts' ideal member (aggressive), nothing will be disrupted, as only boys and girls who fit and enjoy that environment will choose to join.

Re: Boy Scouts Announce They Will Accept Girls

#23

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

alehul wrote: post #22
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that I don't think girls shouldn't be taught certain information, but it's rather a mindset that is taught. A group of boys being led by men can learn a mindset better suited for the mind of a man. With their greater testosterone, men have much more aggression an desire for status overall than women, and with guidance by a father figure, can learn to harness and focus that energy in a way a woman wouldn't be…

I agree with you on a scientific level, for example, that men have more testosterone and thus are more likely to be aggressive in their pursuits, which is often critical to success. At the same time, however, there are many men who are less aggressive and women who are more aggressive; broad averages aren't the perfect solution. Couldn't we promote this 'aggressive' ideology as genderless? As long as we're clear abou…

> Couldn't we promote this 'aggressive' ideology as genderless?

In an ideal world that might work, but it seems like everywhere that makes gender inclusivity a priority always ends up losing its masculine traits. I just don't see why there can't be some boys-only organizations and girls-only organizations anymore.

Re: Boy Scouts Announce They Will Accept Girls

#24

Post by alehul »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #23
alehul wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you on a scientific level, for example, that men have more testosterone and thus are more likely to be aggressive in their pursuits, which is often critical to success. At the same time, however, there are many men who are less aggressive and women who are more aggressive; broad averages aren't the perfect solution. Couldn't we promote this 'aggressive' ideology as genderless? As long as we're clear abou…

> Couldn't we promote this 'aggressive' ideology as genderless? In an ideal world that might work, but it seems like everywhere that makes gender inclusivity a priority always ends up losing its masculine traits. I just don't see why there can't be some boys-only organizations and girls-only organizations anymore.

I understand the plight and I think that has certainly occurred in some instances, however, in reaching the ideal, the importance seems to be inclusiveness yet straightforwardness in purpose.

We should aim to promote gender inclusivity, but not stigmatize traditional gender mindsets, i.e. 'aggressiveness', as negative in the process. If an institution starts accepting females and then (oftentimes purposely) loses that common mindset, it simply reinforces gender stereotypes.

Re: Boy Scouts Announce They Will Accept Girls

#25

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

alehul wrote: post #24
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Couldn't we promote this 'aggressive' ideology as genderless? In an ideal world that might work, but it seems like everywhere that makes gender inclusivity a priority always ends up losing its masculine traits. I just don't see why there can't be some boys-only organizations and girls-only organizations anymore.

I understand the plight and I think that has certainly occurred in some instances, however, in reaching the ideal, the importance seems to be inclusiveness yet straightforwardness in purpose. We should aim to promote gender inclusivity, but not stigmatize traditional gender mindsets, i.e. 'aggressiveness', as negative in the process. If an institution starts accepting females and then (oftentimes purposely) loses tha…

> it simply reinforces gender stereotypes

I have a serious question, and this arises from my mentality that we should be accepting of aberrations from the norm, but that doesn't mean we should hurt the majority in the process.

Why are gender stereotypes bad? If we understand that men and women are different overall, and that those differences lead to a bimodal distribution with gender traits something like this[1], then wouldn't stereotypes naturally emerge? Should we be punishing behavior that large chunks of people align to?

[1] https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YMOXSZ4aTmg/Vwf79cRcjOI/AAAAAAAAO...

Re: Boy Scouts Announce They Will Accept Girls

#26

Post by kd5bjo »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #25
alehul wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the plight and I think that has certainly occurred in some instances, however, in reaching the ideal, the importance seems to be inclusiveness yet straightforwardness in purpose. We should aim to promote gender inclusivity, but not stigmatize traditional gender mindsets, i.e. 'aggressiveness', as negative in the process. If an institution starts accepting females and then (oftentimes purposely) loses tha…

> it simply reinforces gender stereotypes I have a serious question, and this arises from my mentality that we should be accepting of aberrations from the norm, but that doesn't mean we should hurt the majority in the process. Why are gender stereotypes bad? If we understand that men and women are different overall, and that those differences lead to a bimodal distribution with gender traits something like this[1], t…

Gender stereotypes, when applied to individuals instead of large populations, severely punish anyone that falls on the "wrong" side of the median.

Re: Boy Scouts Announce They Will Accept Girls

#27

Post by craftkiller »

SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #9

Putting aside the context of whether this makes sense with the existence of Girl Scouts, as an Eagle Scout I’m pretty happy that the organization has made strides to turn around its image of exclusivity. It’s certainly about 15 years later than it needed to be, but such a huge organization that is dedicated to inspiring ideals in young people should be sending the right message. It’s a far cry from the early 2000’s e…

Make no mistake, they were asking if you believed in "God". The BSA prohibits atheists / agnostics [1]

My troop told me to lie. I chose to not participate.

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20080509074048/http://www.bsaleg...

Re: Boy Scouts Announce They Will Accept Girls

#28

Post by belorn »

When I was young here in Sweden, we had "Scouterna" (loosely translated as the scouts) which included both boys and girls. With little to no single-sex education it is very naturally that educational organizations also do not segregate on gender.

When the boy scouts started in 1908 I would guess that single-sex education was the norm in the US?

Re: Boy Scouts Announce They Will Accept Girls

#29

Post by alehul »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #25
alehul wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the plight and I think that has certainly occurred in some instances, however, in reaching the ideal, the importance seems to be inclusiveness yet straightforwardness in purpose. We should aim to promote gender inclusivity, but not stigmatize traditional gender mindsets, i.e. 'aggressiveness', as negative in the process. If an institution starts accepting females and then (oftentimes purposely) loses tha…

> it simply reinforces gender stereotypes I have a serious question, and this arises from my mentality that we should be accepting of aberrations from the norm, but that doesn't mean we should hurt the majority in the process. Why are gender stereotypes bad? If we understand that men and women are different overall, and that those differences lead to a bimodal distribution with gender traits something like this[1], t…

I agree with that mentality!

In regards to gender stereotypes: children are very impressionable, and we should encourage the ideology that people of either gender can have any combination of personality traits, interests, and so on. If gender stereotypes are naturally disassembled to an extent, I think the world would be a somewhat better place.

The only point of contention I have is when people begin to associate the personalities involved in gender stereotypes with the negative connotation of gender stereotypes, and thus discourage those personalities. We shouldn't try to remove all gender stereotypes with punishment, as you said; some are natural. We should just aim to remove restrictions on personalities as much as possible, and see what the effects are.

Re: Boy Scouts Announce They Will Accept Girls

#30

Post by belorn »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #21
sciurus wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is it that Boy Scouts teaches that you don't think girls should be taught?

It's not that I don't think girls shouldn't be taught certain information, but it's rather a mindset that is taught. A group of boys being led by men can learn a mindset better suited for the mind of a man. With their greater testosterone, men have much more aggression an desire for status overall than women, and with guidance by a father figure, can learn to harness and focus that energy in a way a woman wouldn't be…

Testosterone is not that simplistic that you can infer aggressiveness based on it. Take a group of men (or boys) and sort them based on aggressive behavior, and then measure testosterone, and the later will be very a poor predictor for the first.

For example people have tried to "treat" crime by chemically castrate violent criminal, but it did not work. Researchers expected an increase in testosterone levels to inevitably lead to more aggression, and this didn't reliably occur. Only at levels far above normal variance (roid rage) can such effect be measure, and you need either a medical condition or injections to have that occur. Research about testosterone and aggression indicates that there's only a weak connection between the two, and when aggression is more narrowly defined as simple physical violence the connection all but disappears. In fact, in a study of men castrated to calm them down, nine out of sixteen died as a result of aggressive encounters.

Testosterone does have an effect on inter-sex competition, such as tendency to seek social rank and dominance. If one consider a function of testosterone is reproduction, this make sense. A high social ranked male in say a baboon group will have better reproductive success than other males, but a indiscriminate violent male won't. Interestingly, testosterone also increase after gaining ranks (such as winning contest), implying that the body is "telling" itself that it should focus more on reproduction because of the new increased chance.

A group of boys will compete for social ranking, but so will girls. If school yards has anything to show it is that kids of both gender need to learn to harness and focus that energy into cooperation and self-improvement.

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