Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#21

Post by SomeStupidPoint » Tue, Oct 10, 2017, 9:01 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #11

SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #9

> No ninjas, rockstars or brogrammers, please; just nice, caring humans. I like how in a post about inclusive job ads, they still wanted to show off that they Exclude The Right People . Their cultural based discrimination is obviously correct and should be applied universally; previous cultural based discrimination is a crime we should all strive to avoid! I actually enjoyed the post (and agree with most of the point…

i think you might be conflating the discouragement of a behavior with the application of an identity to people, something the article seems to try to avoid. hostedgraphite isn't saying they don't want competent programmers, even if they've copped the brogrammer attitude in the past, but rather, to leave the brogrammer stance at the door. if you can't do that, then (and only then) don't apply for the job because you p…

I get what they were trying to say; the way that they said it was inappropriate because it was structured as an attack on stereotypes and no kind of call out to behavior.

And that is particularly egregious in a post about how word choice can make your job less appealing to groups.

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#22

Post by SomeStupidPoint » Tue, Oct 10, 2017, 9:05 PM UTC

twic wrote: post #20

maxxxxx wrote: post #8

I would replace " No ninjas, rockstars or brogrammers, please; just nice, caring humans." with "Just nice, caring humans". "no..." sentences sound defensive to me.

You could say: We value the ability to work with others over exceptional technical skills. That is, while there is value in the latter, we value the former more. No "no", no defensiveness, but the preference is clear.

That's still defensive.

"Here, we place a strong focus on ability to work with others and collaboration. Success requires teamwork!"

Don't justify your preference, just state it directly. It's not about tradeoffs, it's that we're fundamentally doing something collaborative -- everyone needs to be on the same team.

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#23

Post by doktrin » Tue, Oct 10, 2017, 9:06 PM UTC

interlocutor wrote: post #13

Can someone define what a "rockstar programmer" is and why a company would want to not hire rockstar programmers? Here's one definition I found: http://www.urbandictionary.com/author.php?author=ChrisTTT A computer programmer with such strong skills and so much specific experience that they are the equivalent of a rock star in the domain of software. Many people play guitar pretty well, but only a few become rock star…

Every company, all else equal, wants the best talent available. There are two separate and not necessarily related issues here :

1. all else is not always equal, and the most technically proficient developer is not always the one that adds the most to a given team (and in fact is not even always a net-positive)

2. Great developers don't always self-identify as great developers, and conversely not-so-great developers do occasionally self-identify as great developers.

In short, I suspect they're trying to weed out a psychological profile - not aptitude per se.

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#24

Post by seaknoll » Tue, Oct 10, 2017, 9:13 PM UTC

interlocutor wrote: post #13

Can someone define what a "rockstar programmer" is and why a company would want to not hire rockstar programmers? Here's one definition I found: http://www.urbandictionary.com/author.php?author=ChrisTTT A computer programmer with such strong skills and so much specific experience that they are the equivalent of a rock star in the domain of software. Many people play guitar pretty well, but only a few become rock star…

Kluny's response is correct, but I'll also add - when I see "rockstar programmer" on a job advertisement it reeks of "meaningless corporate BS" and/or "juvenile work environment".

If you require someone that can "develop more software than 5 - 10 newly hired regular programmers", just say so (and good luck).

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#25

Post by Kalium » Tue, Oct 10, 2017, 9:16 PM UTC

Kluny wrote: post #19

interlocutor wrote: post #13

Can someone define what a "rockstar programmer" is and why a company would want to not hire rockstar programmers? Here's one definition I found: http://www.urbandictionary.com/author.php?author=ChrisTTT A computer programmer with such strong skills and so much specific experience that they are the equivalent of a rock star in the domain of software. Many people play guitar pretty well, but only a few become rock star…

I'll tackle this. - If they are expected to do 5-10 times the amount of software development as a regular new programmer, are they going to be offered 5-10 times the regular salary? - Are all the other programmers at the company dramatically more effective than a regular programmer? Most competent people don't think of themselves as being exceptionally better than their peers, so if that's the case, they probably sho…

For a lot of places, the answer is yes. They do want to drive that person away. They want someone who will do 5x the work for 0.8x the salary because they think $TOPIC is their great calling in life.

To someone willing to burn out a promising young programmer to get their startup to hockey-stick upwards, it's a good deal.

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#26

Post by j45 » Tue, Oct 10, 2017, 9:40 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #8

I would replace " No ninjas, rockstars or brogrammers, please; just nice, caring humans." with "Just nice, caring humans". "no..." sentences sound defensive to me.

Doesn't seem that defensive, just highlighting that a self-focused individual won't thrive here.

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#27

Post by gertef » Tue, Oct 10, 2017, 9:41 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #8

I would replace " No ninjas, rockstars or brogrammers, please; just nice, caring humans." with "Just nice, caring humans". "no..." sentences sound defensive to me.

The first part is important to signal that you aren't just trying to find people to work with, but that you also want to join up in a culture war, and a culture war requires promoting ideas to hate instead of letting them fade away.

Imagine how it would look if they wrote "no pushovers or girly-girls, please"

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#28

Post by j45 » Tue, Oct 10, 2017, 9:43 PM UTC

interlocutor wrote: post #13

Can someone define what a "rockstar programmer" is and why a company would want to not hire rockstar programmers? Here's one definition I found: http://www.urbandictionary.com/author.php?author=ChrisTTT A computer programmer with such strong skills and so much specific experience that they are the equivalent of a rock star in the domain of software. Many people play guitar pretty well, but only a few become rock star…

Actual "rockstars" (I know a few who may qualify) don't look for positions calling for rockstars, mostly because they're a little more mature and focussed at any age.

They are just a one person department/wrecking team who can take on a team of many, they are genuinely interested in problems that are the rockstars, not themselves.

I've found a certain percentage of folks wanting to be recognized or move into a position of rockstars are often more attracted to positions attracting rockstars, wizards and ninjas all trying to rock out, cast spells, and throw stars in the same room. There is no ladder into rockstarism, only a track record that is remarkable and speaks for itself.

Like a lot of fields, the quiet people in the room are often the smartest and most interesting. Finding a way to get them onto teams where they can make a huge difference is key.

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#29

Post by gertef » Tue, Oct 10, 2017, 9:43 PM UTC

adrianratnapala wrote: post #15

What the heck is a "brogrammer" anyway? It's one of those words I thought I understood just from its contsruction, but the more I see it used by others, the more confused I get.

It means "a male working in tech who I don't like"

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#30

Post by conductr » Tue, Oct 10, 2017, 9:47 PM UTC

On the other hand, if you were going to write your job posting the pre-edit way and the said applicant was turned off by it... will they even be a good fit in your org? Do you want to continue editing all of your communications?

I’m kind of being devils advocate here but I do find it a drag to work with people who can’t read between the lines sometimes and get the gist of what someone means rather than feeling excluded by they’re word choices.