Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes • Hacker News Board

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#21

Post by beejiu » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 1:49 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #10

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #2

Someone made a point recently that the past 50 years really have been a golden age of democracy (possibly the only 50 in history) That during the 19C there was much more semi-democracy with strong authoritarian governments in Europe, cracking down on what we would call democracy (1816,1848 etc) The point was that it is fairly easy to slip back.

I feel sorry for the injured in this Catalan referendum, but in my opinion this referendum has nothing to do with democracy. First of all a country's constitution is sacrosanct and that constitution not only gives the people their power to vote, but also says that the country's territory is indivisible . If the Catalan people want to change that, then the referendum should involve all of Spain's citizens, having as m…

Then I suppose you don't know or understand the history of every modern state in existence (including the United States).

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#22

Post by rasjani » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 1:50 PM UTC

fcanela wrote: post #6

droopyEyelids wrote: post #3

Example of the crackdown on voters. They seem completely nonviolent to me, even in the face of a disproportionate response. https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/914427797753430017 https://twitter.com/ZabMustefa/status/914406611375894528

The woman was not injured by police: she had an accident with the stairs going to vote. There are videos with the attack to the police. At the end, there are violent people with the pacifist voters and not professional policemen too. EDIT: Evidence asked, here it is https://youtu.be/wmLTRluQm94 EDIT 2: I was asked for source about the women and people manipulating pictures. Two sources here: https://twitter.com/arb14…

Also videos like this: https://twitter.com/blancallumvidal/status/91442065475317350...

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#23

Post by kiliancs » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 1:50 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #10

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #2

Someone made a point recently that the past 50 years really have been a golden age of democracy (possibly the only 50 in history) That during the 19C there was much more semi-democracy with strong authoritarian governments in Europe, cracking down on what we would call democracy (1816,1848 etc) The point was that it is fairly easy to slip back.

I feel sorry for the injured in this Catalan referendum, but in my opinion this referendum has nothing to do with democracy. First of all a country's constitution is sacrosanct and that constitution not only gives the people their power to vote, but also says that the country's territory is indivisible . If the Catalan people want to change that, then the referendum should involve all of Spain's citizens, having as m…

Self-determination of peoples is a jus cogens law and a cardinal principle in international law. It's part of the UN's Charter and it's enshrined in many international treaties subscribed by Spain and by the European Union.

The Spanish constitution recognizes the right to self-determination inasmuch as it explicitly enshrines the international treaties that define it.

Spain has always defended that this right to self-determination is confined to colonies because it would otherwise conflict with the also very important principle of territorial integrity. However, the International Court of Justice explained in its Advisory Opinion of 22 July 2010 regarding the case of Kosovo that “the scope of the principle of territorial integrity is confined to the sphere of relations between States”. Thus, even unilateral declarations of independence do not conflict with the aforementioned principle: “general international law contains no applicable prohibition of declarations of independence“.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#24

Post by wav-part » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 1:51 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #13

wav-part wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fairism is not something you build a stable society with. The individual (usually wealthy) vs majority was the canary.

Eh?

What we see in todays world is lot of disagreements. Why ?. Because neither side has consistent interpretation of (social) contract. Why ? Because its subjective which is result of fairism.

I am not really a good writer. I hope that clears it up. If not just ask.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#25

Post by 627467 » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 1:52 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #10

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #2

Someone made a point recently that the past 50 years really have been a golden age of democracy (possibly the only 50 in history) That during the 19C there was much more semi-democracy with strong authoritarian governments in Europe, cracking down on what we would call democracy (1816,1848 etc) The point was that it is fairly easy to slip back.

I feel sorry for the injured in this Catalan referendum, but in my opinion this referendum has nothing to do with democracy. First of all a country's constitution is sacrosanct and that constitution not only gives the people their power to vote, but also says that the country's territory is indivisible . If the Catalan people want to change that, then the referendum should involve all of Spain's citizens, having as m…

If the constitution and the courts have deemed the ref illegal and any outcome invalid what else do you need to prove that independentist have no legal ground to proceed? The war declaration is from the police and who controls them. Catalans may be playing referendum but that's their call. Are you going to shoot the first person who declares independence?

The value of freedom of speech is very weak in spain...

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#26

Post by interfixus » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 1:53 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #10

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #2

Someone made a point recently that the past 50 years really have been a golden age of democracy (possibly the only 50 in history) That during the 19C there was much more semi-democracy with strong authoritarian governments in Europe, cracking down on what we would call democracy (1816,1848 etc) The point was that it is fairly easy to slip back.

I feel sorry for the injured in this Catalan referendum, but in my opinion this referendum has nothing to do with democracy. First of all a country's constitution is sacrosanct and that constitution not only gives the people their power to vote, but also says that the country's territory is indivisible . If the Catalan people want to change that, then the referendum should involve all of Spain's citizens, having as m…

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another...

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#27

Post by tangus » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 1:53 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #10

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #2

Someone made a point recently that the past 50 years really have been a golden age of democracy (possibly the only 50 in history) That during the 19C there was much more semi-democracy with strong authoritarian governments in Europe, cracking down on what we would call democracy (1816,1848 etc) The point was that it is fairly easy to slip back.

I feel sorry for the injured in this Catalan referendum, but in my opinion this referendum has nothing to do with democracy. First of all a country's constitution is sacrosanct and that constitution not only gives the people their power to vote, but also says that the country's territory is indivisible . If the Catalan people want to change that, then the referendum should involve all of Spain's citizens, having as m…

You are so strict with your definition of democracy and so loose with your definition of war declaration...

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#28

Post by faragon » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 1:53 PM UTC

The European Union sides with the Spanish Constitution, supporting the rule of law, against the regional nationalist revolt [1]. Also, it seems that Russian "hackers" are helping the rebels [2].

[1] https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/15/inenglish/1505463613_51...

[2] https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/28/inenglish/1506588970_02...

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#29

Post by pjc50 » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 1:53 PM UTC

5_minutes wrote: post #11

Indirectly, the Spanish reacting with brute force will just help the Catalans -- as they're proving their point.

Indeed. If the situation can be de-escalated without more than one or two people getting killed, then the situation will probably return to the status quo.

If it escalates to live ammunition in the streets, then Catalonia will have its martrys and its independence.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#30

Post by slim » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 1:54 PM UTC

627467 wrote: post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

Politics are above law. Laws don't matter. The only thing that matters is power of the masses. If the Catalans are determined, laws will be changed