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The Dying Art of Disagreement

nytimes.com

21–30 of 80 posts

Re: The Dying Art of Disagreement

#21

Speakers are compensated handsomely for their engagements, no? I don't see anything wrong with students refusing to see their tuition bankroll the likes of Kissinger or Rice--people with blood on their hands.

The article is talking about something more than protest. Most of the hatred was focused on Dr. Murray, but when I took his right arm to shield him and to make sure we stayed together, the crowd turned on me. Someone pulled my hair, while others were shoving me. I feared for my life. Once we got into the car, protesters climbed on it, hitting the windows and rocking the vehicle whenever we stopped to avoid harming th…

> Or is there some other change in society that is a bigger factor?

Tribalism. We seem to be hardwired for it, to seek it out. As the immediate bonds in family/religion/neighborhood/etc are being torn down by modern individualism, so new tribal bonds are formed.

In the age of the internet, as you said, you can find a voice that validates any belief. A community forms around the smallest nugget of common belief.

And so tribes are formed.

Mind you we also seem to be living in a society that increasingly believes that anything you think, you immediately believe to be true. That to hold opposing beliefs, or at least to inspect and consider thoughts that are “wrong”, immediately makes you ... I dunno. Almost like thinking something immediately makes it your sole belief.

So it becomes impossible, dangerous even, to allow opposing beliefs to even be expressed lest they take you over.

Thought police basically.

Re: The Dying Art of Disagreement

#22
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Karl Marx's ideas have been responsible for the deaths of about 100 million people (and counting), yet they still seem to be granted plenty of airtime at our universities.

There is a difference between ideas and people who put those ideas into practice. Marx was just a writer. Lenin or Stalin—I don’t think you can respectfully disagree about them.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (whose government routinely murdered gay people, among other nasty behaviors) gave a speech at Columbia University. While the speech was (rightly) protested, he was not shouted down, nor was he forced to flee from a violent mob.

Re: The Dying Art of Disagreement

#23
>Yes, we disagree constantly. But what makes our disagreements so toxic is that we refuse to make eye contact with our opponents, or try to see things as they might, or find some middle ground.

This bothers me so much. In my social circle (and I expect many of yours) simply understanding the other side is demonized. It's a sin to admit that, despite their conclusions being terrible, these human beings have some sense somewhere.

When you hear a view you disagree with, instead of disagreeing, first try to understand. These are intelligent human beings who will surprise you. Most often, it turns out the point they are making isn't quite the one you thought, or at least it has some nuance and the truth is somewhere in between you.

It's bad even here on HN. There was a post last week about using genetic algorithms to solve jigsaw puzzles. It looks like this: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/nemanja-m/gaps/master/imag... .

One commenter was disappointed at the test image used, because:

> At best, it's crass and tasteless. At worst, it's openly disrespectful and hostile to women.

Another commenter asked:

> Why is it crass and tasteless? And why is it openly hostile and disrespectful to women?

The response was:

> If I need to explain to you why using a nude image of a model (taken from a pornography magazine, no less) is hostile and disrespectful, then I suspect you are part of the problem.

As typical, treating your "opponent" as an intelligent moral person, trying to understand them first, applying the slightest bit of empathy, then even if you agree that the picture is crass/hostile/whatever, it's much more respectful and likely that the asker simply did not know the history of it, rather than the asker being immoral (from that POV).

Jumping straight to "you are part of the problem" is an extreme version of what happens in most of these disagreements. There's no respect or effort towards empathy and it makes me really sad.

Re: The Dying Art of Disagreement

#24
> We express our disagreements in radio and cable TV rants in ways that are increasingly virulent;

And Tweeter. I never signed up, but from the posts and tweets I've seen, I can't imagine a worse platform for sharing ideas or views. I don't see a stream of 140 character insults or smartass comments ever resulting in someone saying "Hmm, that's a great point, maybe I'll rethink my position. I guess I am a dumbass just like you described. Thanks".

> Then we get to college, where the dominant mode of politics is identity politics, and in which the primary test of an argument isn’t the quality of the thinking but the cultural,

There is an element there were colleges have started to treat students (and parents who pay for the tuition) as customers. Don't offend anyone, build clubs for every need and hobby, luxury dorms. My university last I heard built a huge rec center with a pool and a lazy river going around it. Oh the irony. Tuition has risen dramatically and the idea is anyone who pays that much is not going to tolerate being inconvenienced, or challenged in any way. If they do, they'll "demand to talk to the manager" so to speak. Take their money and go some other place. And maybe mentality extends to ideas and what is taught and so on, not just rec centers and facilities.

> This is the baroque way Americans often speak these days. It is a way of replacing individual thought — with all the effort that actual thinking requires — with social identification

Another thing I noticed as an outsider, that maybe people from America haven't noticed because they are immersed in the culture, is that just as much as there are victims and oppressed groups, there is an equal and greater amount of those who want to gain an upper hand by either identifying as a victim in some way or claim to speak for some victims "My heart aches for the struggles of group X and I'll go on a Tweeter rampage to support them". And yet they've never interacted with that group in any meaningful way to understand them, and are simply doing this dance to brag and gain some kind of status. Can't tell how many times I've heard people trying to one up each other concerning how many minority group they know. "Oh you're friends with X and Y. Aha but I have a friend who is X, Y, and Z. And everyone gasps, oh wow, that's really cool you're such a good person". Once you see it a few times, it's hard to miss it.

Re: The Dying Art of Disagreement

#25
post #18
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can start by saying what ideas of his you think are wrong, and why they are wrong. Then you can listen to why he (or those he agrees with) believe those ideas are right.

If I think your ideas are morally wrong and getting people killed, I am compelled to either try and stop you, or resign myself to cowardly inaction. I of course choose cowardly inaction—I’m selfish and enjoy the comfort of my life and don’t want to disturb it. But I don’t try to make that out to be a virtue!

The way to stop people like him without killing the foundation of our democracy is to explain rationally why his ideas are terrible and why no one should listen to them, not to prevent him from speaking at all. No one is suggesting that you do nothing.

Re: The Dying Art of Disagreement

#26
post #19
post #11

It all started with feminism.

This breaks the site guidelines, which ask you not to post flamebait. Unfortunately we've had to ask you a ton of times to stop breaking the rules. If you keep breaking them we're going to have to ban you, so would you please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and only post civil, substantive comments (or no comments) from now on?

What's your problem? It's a factual statement not flamebait. The fact you might disagree changes nothing.

Re: The Dying Art of Disagreement

#27
post #17

It would be really amazing if those who choose to comment in this thread would try to do their best to disagree with each other thoughtfully, charitably, and respectfully.

I would love to, but those others are just spouting thoughtless nonsense that is impossible to argue with. /s

But seriously, thoughtful comments take time; and are often formed by trying to explain why the thoughtless comments are wrong.

Re: The Dying Art of Disagreement

#28
post #7

I’m not sure how you’re supposed to respectfully disagree about someone like Kissenger who got hundreds of thousands of people killed through his ideas.

Karl Marx's ideas have been responsible for the deaths of about 100 million people (and counting), yet they still seem to be granted plenty of airtime at our universities.

Marx wrote books, and he died in 1883. The split between Marxists/Trotskyists/Stalinists is well-documented, and reading Das Kapital, you'll see it takes as much of a twisted mind to go from his ideas to Stalin as it takes to get from the bible to the Westboro Baptist Church.

Kissinger was an active politician, and he's criticised not so much for his ideas as his actions. I seem to remember that quite a few people during the Charlottesville brouhaha were keen to insist that people should be judged by their actions.

There's also a difference between a study of Marx/Kissinger, and attending an event that has them as guests. A famous speaker's attendance is an honour for the host, but it also honours the speaker. I'm sure there are scores of left-leaning researchers and students who have read Kissinger's work or studied his actions while being highly critical of him.

The obvious example is that it's just as common to read Hitler's book and speeches as it is to read Marx when studying history.

Re: The Dying Art of Disagreement

#29
post #24

> We express our disagreements in radio and cable TV rants in ways that are increasingly virulent; And Tweeter. I never signed up, but from the posts and tweets I've seen, I can't imagine a worse platform for sharing ideas or views. I don't see a stream of 140 character insults or smartass comments ever resulting in someone saying "Hmm, that's a great point, maybe I'll rethink my position. I guess I am a dumbass just…

> And Tweeter. I never signed up, but from the posts and tweets I've seen, I can't imagine a worse platform for sharing ideas or views.

I firmly believe in the idea that the tools that we shape shape us in turn as we use them. I don't think it's a coincidence that we're seeing an greater upsurge in rancor as social media becomes more entrenched in our day to day lives. If a system rewards people for doing something, you can bet that people will adapt their thought processes to maximize their gains. Nuance is going to be the first thing jettisoned in a short format that rewards instant emotional gratification.

Re: The Dying Art of Disagreement

#30
post #25
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I think your ideas are morally wrong and getting people killed, I am compelled to either try and stop you, or resign myself to cowardly inaction. I of course choose cowardly inaction—I’m selfish and enjoy the comfort of my life and don’t want to disturb it. But I don’t try to make that out to be a virtue!

The way to stop people like him without killing the foundation of our democracy is to explain rationally why his ideas are terrible and why no one should listen to them, not to prevent him from speaking at all. No one is suggesting that you do nothing.

Debating ideas is one thing. Thoughts are thoughts. Inviting architects of mass death to speak at your university is another thing. Thinkers and speakers get to pull the academic debate card. You should be able to say whatever the heck you want. But once you’ve got blood on your hands you’ve gotta be judged your actions, not on your ideas.
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