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Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

theatlantic.com

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Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#21

Post by VeronicaJJ123 »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #18

I think this sentence is quite telling: "The separation of students, teachers, and administrators into single-sex public schools may serve cultural and religious purposes, but it seems to create an unintentional ghetto for boys...." I think single-sex education is the answer here because for girls, it allows them to flourish and grow without the male-dominated Middle Eastern oppression. Girls can grow and learn in an…

Single Sex education was introduced in India by various Church run schools and from my own personal experience over couple of generations the model is totally frowned upon by most people.

Girls who work in that environment grow up without great interaction with boys and face a lot of trouble in future. However this is India where women can work etc. In Islamic oppressive countries however things might be different.

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#22

Post by cbcoutinho »

> In order to avoid all-female cohorts of students, Sultan Qaboos University, Oman’s only public university, now has two sets of admission criteria: one lower bar for men and one higher bar for women. ... Osman disagrees with this quota system. “It helps to solve a temporary problem, but it has an impact in the long term on students’ confidence and on equality,” he says. “They should have found another way to boost the abilities of boys.”

How is this any different than the increasing discrimination experienced by Asians in Ivy League admissions? I would say that the administrators are just following what the top universities in the world are doing to keep demographics as they would like them.

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#23

Post by lvoudour »

adamnemecek wrote: post #2

Maybe it’s a good time to talk about the fact that school is largely a waste of time. And that it’s not about being smart but how well do you listen and follow orders. Like it’s insane what sort of garbage I had to waste time on and whenever I brought this up, it was brushed away with “get used to it” or “I don’t like it either but that’s how things are”. Not to promote gender stereotypes and what not but I wonder if…

>Maybe it’s a good time to talk about the fact that school is largely a waste of time.

I strongly disagree, but I'm willing to hear a viable alternative that covers millions of children/families (eg. no private tutoring or homeschooling). Let's not forget that school also helps children socialize and parents focus on their work.

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#24

Post by adamnemecek »

noxToken wrote: post #14
adamnemecek wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of a person chewing things for you is stupid. People should go at their pace. I’ve found that out of the six plus hours that you spend in school, only a small fraction is spent productively. So much is wasted on administrative matters. I also found the switching between subjects to be really annoying. Like what if I want to spend half a day a week on the single subject as oppposed to an hour every day. Conte…

> I want a desk and a textbook. I need a teacher only when I get stuck. Kudos to you for being a self-starter, but that barely described me. I have the ability to learn on my own, but if I didn't have an instructor yammering at me, then I was much more likely to spend the time in an unproductive manner. I didn't have Wolfram|Alpha when I was in high school. TI-8x was my cheatsheet iff I knew how to get it to tell me…

> Kudos to you for being a self-starter, but that barely described me. I have the ability to learn on my own, but if I didn't have an instructor yammering at me, then I was much more likely to spend the time in an unproductive manner.

You need to go deeper. You didn't care about the subjects because you just didn't care. Nothing to beat yourself up over. It's more of a problem with the school than you. Kids start out super curious, that energy needs to be amplified, not wasted. But it really does feel like school is more about obedience than learning.

> I do think that the US education system needs a bit of an overhaul.

It really does. For one thing, too much emphasis is placed on "education" and not enough is placed on "skill". E.g. US has no vocational schools that exist in Europe e.g. for nursing or even programming. There are high schools where students are getting prepared for a particular job since the age of 14. In the US, to be a nurse, you need a bachelor's degree and a nursing degree. In many European countries, you need the high school and an associates degree.

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#25

Post by adamnemecek »

lvoudour wrote: post #23
adamnemecek wrote: post #2

Maybe it’s a good time to talk about the fact that school is largely a waste of time. And that it’s not about being smart but how well do you listen and follow orders. Like it’s insane what sort of garbage I had to waste time on and whenever I brought this up, it was brushed away with “get used to it” or “I don’t like it either but that’s how things are”. Not to promote gender stereotypes and what not but I wonder if…

>Maybe it’s a good time to talk about the fact that school is largely a waste of time. I strongly disagree, but I'm willing to hear a viable alternative that covers millions of children/families (eg. no private tutoring or homeschooling). Let's not forget that school also helps children socialize and parents focus on their work.

Right, give them a desk and a book.

> Let's not forget that school also helps children socialize

Yeah don't force me to socialize pls.

Also how much time is really given in school for socialization?

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#26

Post by tomp »

pjc50 wrote: post #9

The answer seems to be "toxic masculinity". (Since I had to clarify this last time: the term refers to expressions or expectations of masculinity and masculine behaviour that are toxic, not a claim that masculinity is toxic in and of itself.) > For one thing, boys’ schools are more violent places, concluded the study > Boys also reported worse relationships with their male teachers > male teachers were three times as…

> (Since I had to clarify this last time: the term refers to expressions or expectations of masculinity and masculine behaviour that are toxic, not a claim that masculinity is toxic in and of itself.)

I'd suggest that the term itself is toxic (and/or sexist). If you think otherwise, can you suggest examples of (stereotypically) masculine behaviours that aren't considered toxic, but positive by the mainstream public/media? Also, can you give any examples of "toxic femininity" behaviours?

If either of these is "no/none", then I'd prefer if you (and everybody else) avoided using this term.

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#27

Post by gkya »

pjc50 wrote: post #9

The answer seems to be "toxic masculinity". (Since I had to clarify this last time: the term refers to expressions or expectations of masculinity and masculine behaviour that are toxic, not a claim that masculinity is toxic in and of itself.) > For one thing, boys’ schools are more violent places, concluded the study > Boys also reported worse relationships with their male teachers > male teachers were three times as…

Second this. I'm from Turkey, we don't have gender separation in education, but your quotes hold. Also, being geeky at school is mostly a feminine thing, and not caring about school is way cooler. The result being girls usually do better in most circumstances.

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#28

Post by mistermann »

croon wrote: post #6
spodek wrote: post #4

> in school, Jordanian girls are crushing their male peers When males outperform females, everyone concludes the system is biased and we should remove the bias. When females outperform males, they say things like "This is baffling on the most obvious levels." Maybe the educational system is biased, favoring how girls learn and behave. Is it hard for people to imagine that systems can benefit girls at the expense of b…

> When males outperform females, everyone concludes the system is biased and we should remove the bias. > When females outperform males, they say things like "This is baffling on the most obvious levels." You point out hypocrisy, but follow it up with an equal but opposite? > Maybe the educational system is biased, favoring how girls learn and behave. Is it hard for people to imagine that systems can benefit girls at…

> Can it not be that this instead proves that systems can be and are biased, in both directions?

Thinking this proves one thing or another is likely incorrect.

There was a time not that long ago when most people would think these findings suggest:

a) There can be noticeable differences across cultures b) There can be noticeable differences across genders

Of course, any modern enlightened non-racist non-misogynst westerner would know both of these beliefs are obviously false.

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#29

Post by Overtonwindow »

dominotw wrote: post #20
Overtonwindow wrote: post #18

I think this sentence is quite telling: "The separation of students, teachers, and administrators into single-sex public schools may serve cultural and religious purposes, but it seems to create an unintentional ghetto for boys...." I think single-sex education is the answer here because for girls, it allows them to flourish and grow without the male-dominated Middle Eastern oppression. Girls can grow and learn in an…

girls seem out perform boys in usa, there is no sex segregation in usa , afaik. http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/04/girls-grades....

Have you found anything that speaks to single-sex education in western countries as better, or worse for girls, or boys?

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#30

Post by lucozade »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #18

I think this sentence is quite telling: "The separation of students, teachers, and administrators into single-sex public schools may serve cultural and religious purposes, but it seems to create an unintentional ghetto for boys...." I think single-sex education is the answer here because for girls, it allows them to flourish and grow without the male-dominated Middle Eastern oppression. Girls can grow and learn in an…

There's some evidence that girls do academically better in single sex schools [0]. But there are a lot of factors involved so I don't think it's that straightforward.

It annoys me slightly that the narrative is that, when boys are doing better, it's because the girls are being held back somehow and when the boys are doing better it's because of an inherent failing in the boys. I have a funny feeling it's al la bit more nuanced than that.

[0] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35419284

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