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Some Corporations Pay a Lot More Taxes Than Others

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Re: Some Corporations Pay a Lot More Taxes Than Others

#21

Post by ams6110 »

theandrewbailey wrote: post #12
quuquuquu wrote: post #4

Amazon decided to "re-invest" all profits back into equipment and etc for the business. Thus there are very few profits to tax. Wal-Mart decided to what, I guess keep all the cash on hand or something. I didn't look up their 10K or 10Qs, but that's what I assume is happening. I'm glad Amazon doesn't pay that much in taxes. 609B in tax money per year goes to the US Military, which has been responsible for more death a…

A lot more tax money goes to non-military parts of the government[0], like welfare and education. I'm not happy that Amazon doesn't pay its fair share. [0] https://www.usafacts.org/government-finances/spending

What's not fair? They are following the law.

Re: Some Corporations Pay a Lot More Taxes Than Others

#22

Post by quuquuquu »

cjarrett wrote: post #13
theandrewbailey wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot more tax money goes to non-military parts of the government[0], like welfare and education. I'm not happy that Amazon doesn't pay its fair share. [0] https://www.usafacts.org/government-finances/spending

Seems bizarre to only think taxes go into the Military Industrial Complex. I mean, sure they take their cut--but I'd like to think that our taxes go towards maintaining our civil society as well! Edit: Seems very much cutting off your nose to spite your face, if one is 'happy' a corporation isn't paying taxes

Per my other comment, the military's cut is 16% of 3.8 trillion.

Energy, Environment, and Science take a combined 2%.

Social Security and Medicare take a combined 60% (!), which are funded by entirely separate taxes (payroll taxes). Amazon still pays those.

Trust me, you don't want a corporation paying income taxes.

It just results in dead Iraqis and global surveillance.

Re: Some Corporations Pay a Lot More Taxes Than Others

#23

Post by ams6110 »

danmaz74 wrote: post #18
grandalf wrote: post #2

This is why corporate taxes are a dumb idea. Firms should not keep one set of books for management accounting and another set that they use for tax purposes. When money is paid to an individual, tax it as income tax. Very simple. Don't give firms an incentive to act as tax shelters or tax avoiders. Think about all the legal fees that have been spent by the firms on that list to avoid and reduce corporate taxes. It's…

Yes, and what happens when those corporations keep hundreds of billions in profits in the bank for years - see eg Apple?

They paid income tax on the profits (at least the profits earned in the USA). Apple was the number one tax payer on the list by a wide margin. Are they supposed to be taxed on their bank balances also?

Re: Some Corporations Pay a Lot More Taxes Than Others

#24

Post by eadmund »

quuquuquu wrote: post #4

Amazon decided to "re-invest" all profits back into equipment and etc for the business. Thus there are very few profits to tax. Wal-Mart decided to what, I guess keep all the cash on hand or something. I didn't look up their 10K or 10Qs, but that's what I assume is happening. I'm glad Amazon doesn't pay that much in taxes. 609B in tax money per year goes to the US Military, which has been responsible for more death a…

> I'm glad Amazon doesn't pay that much in taxes. 1.2T in tax money per year goes to the US Military, which has been responsible for more death and destruction on this planet than could ever be imagined previously.

That's arrant nonsense. Stalin's Holodomor killed 7-10 million people, more than the U.S. military has ever killed, and it starved millions more almost to death. Mao's Great Leap Forward resulted in the deaths of 15-30 million people, more still.

Moreover, the U.S. military is not currently responsible for wanton death and destruction. It has spent the last decade and a half trying to support civilian government and the rule of law both at home & abroad.

Re: Some Corporations Pay a Lot More Taxes Than Others

#25

Post by losvedir »

zimablue wrote: post #8
grandalf wrote: post #2

This is why corporate taxes are a dumb idea. Firms should not keep one set of books for management accounting and another set that they use for tax purposes. When money is paid to an individual, tax it as income tax. Very simple. Don't give firms an incentive to act as tax shelters or tax avoiders. Think about all the legal fees that have been spent by the firms on that list to avoid and reduce corporate taxes. It's…

I think that what you're suggesting (based on a vague understanding of the UK tax system) is abolishing corporate taxes and taxing dividends as income? I'd be curious to hear someone who knows more accounting's view on this. I've always thought that the answer was to have wealth taxes, easier to avoid but surely what we should actually aim for.

> I've always thought that the answer was to have wealth taxes

Oh, I totally think this is where we should be going, too! Income seems like such a weird thing to tax; the wealthiest people don't necessarily have income, and high earners aren't necessarily that wealthy. In terms of "tax the rich", I think wealth taxes are more along the lines of what people envision.

It would simplify things so much, too; you don't have to worry about capital gains vs. ordinary income, or gifts, or the so-called "death tax". Businesses don't need to withhold taxes.

It seems like a simple, low, flat wealth tax, over a certain cut-off, would be best. If would counteract the march to aristocracy and dynastic families, unless the children are similarly able to provide value with their assets. Otherwise their wealth will dwindle over time and others will have a shot.

I think the two negatives I can think of are: 1) dealing with liquidity - you might be "worth" millions, but does that mean you can afford your tax bill? and 2) off-shore havens storing the wealth. But neither seem insurmountable.

I'd love to see any discussions of pros-and-cons of this approach to taxation. I know Islam proscribes a wealth tax, Zakat, but I'm not sure how it works in practice.

Re: Some Corporations Pay a Lot More Taxes Than Others

#26

Post by Quarrelsome »

rossriley wrote: post #11
zimablue wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that what you're suggesting (based on a vague understanding of the UK tax system) is abolishing corporate taxes and taxing dividends as income? I'd be curious to hear someone who knows more accounting's view on this. I've always thought that the answer was to have wealth taxes, easier to avoid but surely what we should actually aim for.

Well the problem is that you just create a loophole. You can already avoid paying any corporation tax by taking money out of a company as salary. In the UK you have dividend tax credit so effectively when you take a dividend you get the tax back that has already been paid (as corporation tax). So both those reasonable ways of extracting money from a company allow you to not pay any additional tax above what income ta…

> when you take a dividend you get the tax back that has already been paid

Yea, that needs to stop. This idea of being "taxed twice" is ridiculous because companies are not people. If they were then yes they would be taxed twice and it would be "unfair" but then they'd also be taxed at the proper rate.

Re: Some Corporations Pay a Lot More Taxes Than Others

#27

Post by a_humean »

ams6110 wrote: post #21
theandrewbailey wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot more tax money goes to non-military parts of the government[0], like welfare and education. I'm not happy that Amazon doesn't pay its fair share. [0] https://www.usafacts.org/government-finances/spending

What's not fair? They are following the law.

Fairness (distributive) != Lawfulness

Justice != Lawfulness - contested

Justice ≈ Fairness - contested, but developed world's post-war political-economies are based upon this either explicitly or implicitly. A lately weakened norm (post-Thatcher/Reagan) that Amazon and others are breaking further.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justice/

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justice-virtue/

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justice-distributive/

Re: Some Corporations Pay a Lot More Taxes Than Others

#28

Post by grandalf »

danmaz74 wrote: post #18
grandalf wrote: post #2

This is why corporate taxes are a dumb idea. Firms should not keep one set of books for management accounting and another set that they use for tax purposes. When money is paid to an individual, tax it as income tax. Very simple. Don't give firms an incentive to act as tax shelters or tax avoiders. Think about all the legal fees that have been spent by the firms on that list to avoid and reduce corporate taxes. It's…

Yes, and what happens when those corporations keep hundreds of billions in profits in the bank for years - see eg Apple?

If shareholders do not demand the money as a dividend and prefer instead to have it kept in the company's control, then so be it.

Shareholders in Apple want Apple to be able to make big investments or acquisitions and are willing to let the money sit there rather than take it as a dividend. This would not be true for most firms.

Re: Some Corporations Pay a Lot More Taxes Than Others

#29

Post by virtualized »

eadmund wrote: post #24
quuquuquu wrote: post #4

Amazon decided to "re-invest" all profits back into equipment and etc for the business. Thus there are very few profits to tax. Wal-Mart decided to what, I guess keep all the cash on hand or something. I didn't look up their 10K or 10Qs, but that's what I assume is happening. I'm glad Amazon doesn't pay that much in taxes. 609B in tax money per year goes to the US Military, which has been responsible for more death a…

> I'm glad Amazon doesn't pay that much in taxes. 1.2T in tax money per year goes to the US Military, which has been responsible for more death and destruction on this planet than could ever be imagined previously. That's arrant nonsense. Stalin's Holodomor killed 7-10 million people, more than the U.S. military has ever killed, and it starved millions more almost to death. Mao's Great Leap Forward resulted in the de…

Bombing civilians and giving weapons to terrorist organizations really helps to support civilian governments and the rule of law.

Re: Some Corporations Pay a Lot More Taxes Than Others

#30

Post by rossriley »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #26
rossriley wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the problem is that you just create a loophole. You can already avoid paying any corporation tax by taking money out of a company as salary. In the UK you have dividend tax credit so effectively when you take a dividend you get the tax back that has already been paid (as corporation tax). So both those reasonable ways of extracting money from a company allow you to not pay any additional tax above what income ta…

> when you take a dividend you get the tax back that has already been paid Yea, that needs to stop. This idea of being "taxed twice" is ridiculous because companies are not people. If they were then yes they would be taxed twice and it would be "unfair" but then they'd also be taxed at the proper rate.

No, I was explaining that this already happens. Actually at least in the UK the system is just changing over to be more clear so rather than the tax credit you just get a lower rate.

So for instance instead of the 25%ish that you would expect to pay in tax on your income you pay 7.5% on your dividends which is more or less the income tax rate minus the corporation tax already paid.

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