Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#21

Post by anythingnonidin » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 5:08 AM UTC

Some reasons for decriminalization of use and possession, summarized:

(i.e., removing criminal penalties or making it no jail time possible, but not government supplied)

- War on drugs has failed. Criminalization has consequences on community - in many cases, most of the negative effects come from the criminalization, not the drug.

- Consensual crimes that don’t harm others shouldn’t be crimes.

- Drug prohibition doesn’t seem to decrease use — Portugal. (Also perhaps Czech, Italy, Spain?)

- Drug war enforcement costs a ton, we could save tax money.

- 1.2 million people arrested for drug possession in 2015. http://www.drugwarfacts.org/chapter/crime_arrests#arrests

- Prisons are crowded. Would reduce this a little.

- Easier for addicts to seek treatment.

I think the strongest reasons are that drug use should be treated as a health issue and not a criminal issue, and that consensual crimes that don't harm others shouldn't be crimes.

What is the single strongest reason for or against decriminalizing all drugs, in your opinion?

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#22

Post by romeopov » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 5:09 AM UTC

Yes! Drugs and Prostitution should be legal!

A sugar daddy can pay a girls rent to have sex with her but if he just gives her the money for sex it's illegal. There's billions that can be taxed and go to things like healthcare and eventually a universal basic income.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#23

Post by andrewfromx » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 5:10 AM UTC

anythingnonidin wrote: post #18

caxistic wrote: post #3

Needs to go even further, and deregulate access to prescription drugs as well, to open up provider competition and increase consumer choice.

What does this mean? Make all Rx drugs OTC?

I think we leave the Rx system as is, in that we still let pharmacists do their job and protect their mainstream normal patients and give good standard of care, but any party drugs where there is already a clandestine market become OTC. i.e. if you want some weird medicine for some weird thing that no one else wants, you'll have to go through the steps to get a Rx for it. But it won't be hard to get. Because once adderall is OTC there will be 1000's of freed up doctors who don't have to write Rx for that.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#24

Post by keithnz » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 5:12 AM UTC

caxistic wrote: post #3

Needs to go even further, and deregulate access to prescription drugs as well, to open up provider competition and increase consumer choice.

I don't understand that line of argument? it's kind of like saying, lets deregulate the road / sky so we have increased choice of how and where we drive and who can fly aircraft and where...... more choice, more competition..... but clearly a bad idea because it is actually dangerous without regulation

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#25

Post by mc32 » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 5:13 AM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #5

Finally. I hope this will signal a turning point on this insane approach to national health in all countries. Drugs are a health problem, not a criminal problem. Lone experts have been fired in western countries when they have expressed this common sense sentiments alone [0]. I hope this groups fares better. Nixon started the war on drugs anyway as a mean to attack left and black activists [1]. Any previous legislati…

I'll agree with consumption not being punishable but a medically treatable issue.

Misditribution (illegal distribution) of controlled dugs (not over the counter) should be punishable --whether they be doctors who knowingly over prescribe or black market sellers (drug dealers).

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#26

Post by abruzzi » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 5:15 AM UTC

ars wrote: post #7

And not just recreational drugs. All drugs. We trust people to manage their own life, this includes medicine. Maybe insurance won't pay for it without a Dr, but if someone wants to self pay, that's their choice.

I'd love it if I didn't have to pay a doctor to have him write the insulin prescription I need. Last time I had medical professionals manage my insulin was when I was hospitalized (they don't like allowing self administered drugs in hospitals.) They almost killed me. Twice my blood sugar dropped to 25 mg/dl. Eventually they gave up and told the nurses to administer the insulin I asked for.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#27

Post by rectang » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 5:17 AM UTC

anythingnonidin wrote: post #21

Some reasons for decriminalization of use and possession, summarized: (i.e., removing criminal penalties or making it no jail time possible, but not government supplied) - War on drugs has failed. Criminalization has consequences on community - in many cases, most of the negative effects come from the criminalization, not the drug. - Consensual crimes that don’t harm others shouldn’t be crimes. - Drug prohibition doe…

The main reason we won't get decriminalization is moral panic. :( But if we did...

There are still better and worse ways to make drugs available. Same as with alcohol, addicts doing high volume are where the money is -- and it's better to design regimes that prevent commercial actors from abusing vulnerable populations. Mark Kleiman has a lot of great stuff to say on the subject.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#28

Post by jeffdavis » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 5:19 AM UTC

"scientific consensus"

I am very troubled by this phrase -- it's almost an oxymoron. Science is not democratic, and scientists aren't anointed arbiters of facts.

Anyone can be a scientist simply by following the scientific method and collecting data in good faith; and a lone outsider with new data can challenge 100 years of "consensus". Obviously they are subject to challenges themselves, or if it's unlikely enough they might reasonably be ignored (e.g. a known charlatan saying they observed cold fusion).

Did this terminology start with the "scientific consensus" on anthropogenic climate change (which I do not dispute, by the way)? I think I understand why it was used in that debate, but I don't think it was a good precedent. Now it's being used to directly apply to policy ("growing scientific consensus on the failures of the global war on drugs").

Before long, it will be used directly in political debates to try to force some scientific organizations to choose a side. And then all credibility is lost.

Researching policies that require deep analysis of scientific (or other) data should be left to think tanks or something similar.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#29

Post by microcolonel » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 5:19 AM UTC

rectang wrote: post #27

anythingnonidin wrote: post #21

Some reasons for decriminalization of use and possession, summarized: (i.e., removing criminal penalties or making it no jail time possible, but not government supplied) - War on drugs has failed. Criminalization has consequences on community - in many cases, most of the negative effects come from the criminalization, not the drug. - Consensual crimes that don’t harm others shouldn’t be crimes. - Drug prohibition doe…

The main reason we won't get decriminalization is moral panic. :( But if we did... There are still better and worse ways to make drugs available. Same as with alcohol, addicts doing high volume are where the money is -- and it's better to design regimes that prevent commercial actors from abusing vulnerable populations. Mark Kleiman has a lot of great stuff to say on the subject.

> and it's better to design regimes that prevent commercial actors from abusing vulnerable populations.

Unless we're looking to apply the law inconsistently based on some arbitrary prejudice of "vulnerability", this would seem to be basically what we're already doing. Any decriminalization approach which criminalizes access for addicts almost defeats the purpose according to your own rubric.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#30

Post by anythingnonidin » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 5:20 AM UTC

rectang wrote: post #27

anythingnonidin wrote: post #21

Some reasons for decriminalization of use and possession, summarized: (i.e., removing criminal penalties or making it no jail time possible, but not government supplied) - War on drugs has failed. Criminalization has consequences on community - in many cases, most of the negative effects come from the criminalization, not the drug. - Consensual crimes that don’t harm others shouldn’t be crimes. - Drug prohibition doe…

The main reason we won't get decriminalization is moral panic. :( But if we did... There are still better and worse ways to make drugs available. Same as with alcohol, addicts doing high volume are where the money is -- and it's better to design regimes that prevent commercial actors from abusing vulnerable populations. Mark Kleiman has a lot of great stuff to say on the subject.

Agreed. Kleiman's work is great!