The Memories of Plants • Hacker News Board

Re: The Memories of Plants

#21

Post by burnte » Fri, Sep 08, 2017, 1:06 AM UTC

anfractuosity wrote: post #12

burnte wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. Both of those actions occur due to the ion channels and gates resetting to their normal, pre-triggered state. In both of these plants their movements are triggered by ion potentials changing, like nerves in animals, opening channels to move water from one area to another, changing the shape of cells, bending cell walls due to water pressure, causing the movement. Then, slowly the water is moved back to its p…

Thanks for the description, that makes a lot of sense. I'll have to read up what light is doing wrt the Mimosa, as to how it opens the leaves. I bought one recently, as well as closing it's leaves when you touch them, it seems to 'go to sleep', when it gets darker. Edit: https://backyardbrains.com/experiments/Plants_Mimosas Is cool, measuring the action potential.

Those diagrams are fantastic. Great find!

Re: The Memories of Plants

#22

Post by randomdrake » Fri, Sep 08, 2017, 1:16 AM UTC

If plants having memories is something that interests you, then you should also check out this recently (2017/05) published study:

Temperature variability is integrated by a spatially embedded decision-making center to break dormancy in Arabidopsis seeds

DOI: 10.1073/pnas.1704745114

In short, it shows a seed having binary decision-making areas that communicate with each other to determine the best outcome for survival.

From the paper:

"Both plants and animals make decisions in response to the environment to maximize their fitness. Plants use dormancy in seeds to move through time and space, and timing of the transition to germination is influenced by external cues, including temperature. Here, we report the presence of a decision-making center within the root tip of dormant seeds and demonstrate that it shares a similar configuration as some systems within the human brain. Unlike in humans, where this spatial structure is used to filter out noisy inputs from the environment, seeds use this arrangement to harness fluctuating temperatures and stimulate the termination of dormancy. Variable inputs therefore act as an instructive signal for seeds, enhancing the accuracy with which plants are established in ecosystems."

Re: The Memories of Plants

#23

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Sep 08, 2017, 1:30 AM UTC

toomanybeersies wrote: post #19

asciimo wrote: post #4

A surprisingly common argument against veganism is "but plants feel pain, too," based on interpretations of articles such as this one on Vice [ https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/xd74nd/we-asked-a-botanis... ]. I suppose the argument is that, if there is any amount of cruelty in our consumption, then we may as well surrender to this fact and eat whatever we want. (Also, haha vegans are dumb.) I'm sure this study will…

Well you could become a fungitarian I guess? You'd really struggle to get enough calories purely from fungus though, I guess you could get a decent amount from algae if you build some nice large algae reactors to feed you.

I've thought about plankton. You ought to be able to make a pretty nourishing stew out of (the right varieties of) plankton.

Note well: I have no idea how restrictive a subset "the right varieties" is, nor how hard it is to obtain plankton that are only from that subset.

Re: The Memories of Plants

#24

Post by interfixus » Fri, Sep 08, 2017, 2:26 AM UTC

damnfine wrote: post #7

asciimo wrote: post #4

A surprisingly common argument against veganism is "but plants feel pain, too," based on interpretations of articles such as this one on Vice [ https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/xd74nd/we-asked-a-botanis... ]. I suppose the argument is that, if there is any amount of cruelty in our consumption, then we may as well surrender to this fact and eat whatever we want. (Also, haha vegans are dumb.) I'm sure this study will…

And the Vegan shows up! I kid, but the stereotype really holds true all too often. The unsaid assumption in your comment, that I disagree with, is that harvesting animals causes anymore suffering than caring for and harvesting plants (in a humane manner, which admittedly, many facotry farms fail at on either side.)

> And the Vegan shows up! I kid, but the stereotype really holds true all too often

And the meat-man with a vengeance shows up. I kid you not, this stereotype holds true all too often. And, may I add, puzzles me absolutely no end. What is it about some people's restrictive dietary choices that regularly sets off these spasms of all too vocal disapproval in the minds of certain people?

I do not, as a general rule, eat meat. The predictable uninvited spluttering opinions on that quite unremarkable situation are beginning to get really old. Please!

Re: The Memories of Plants

#25

Post by njarboe » Fri, Sep 08, 2017, 2:39 AM UTC

asciimo wrote: post #4

A surprisingly common argument against veganism is "but plants feel pain, too," based on interpretations of articles such as this one on Vice [ https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/xd74nd/we-asked-a-botanis... ]. I suppose the argument is that, if there is any amount of cruelty in our consumption, then we may as well surrender to this fact and eat whatever we want. (Also, haha vegans are dumb.) I'm sure this study will…

Most calories from plants come from plants that have already died. Corn, wheat, soybean, etc. Maybe stop eating greens if this bothers you. Nice firm lettuce is quite alive when you eat it.

Re: The Memories of Plants

#26

Post by Abishek_Muthian » Fri, Sep 08, 2017, 3:30 AM UTC

"Monica Gagliano began to study plant behavior because she was tired of killing animal"

Considering she still calls plants 'he' & dedicated her life to study them, I wonder what's her current perspective on the above statement. The article does mention abusing plants as part of the study, does this mean the scientists themselves feel it's less violent. Since it's proven that the plants react to stimulus, how do they convince themselves that they aren't hurting the plants.

Re: The Memories of Plants

#27

Post by tedunangst » Fri, Sep 08, 2017, 3:47 AM UTC

interfixus wrote: post #24

damnfine wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the Vegan shows up! I kid, but the stereotype really holds true all too often. The unsaid assumption in your comment, that I disagree with, is that harvesting animals causes anymore suffering than caring for and harvesting plants (in a humane manner, which admittedly, many facotry farms fail at on either side.)

> And the Vegan shows up! I kid, but the stereotype really holds true all too often And the meat-man with a vengeance shows up. I kid you not, this stereotype holds true all too often. And, may I add, puzzles me absolutely no end. What is it about some people's restrictive dietary choices that regularly sets off these spasms of all too vocal disapproval in the minds of certain people? I do not, as a general rule, eat…

To the extent someone's choices don't affect me, I'm also unaware of them. Your business is your business, yada yada. But if I know you're a vegan, it's because at some point you made it my business, so I think I'm justified in commenting on it.

For the most part I agree with you. There's a lot of sneering at vegans, and most vegans are harmless and anonymous. As with everything, it's the preachy ones who spoil everything.

Re: The Memories of Plants

#28

Post by hluska » Fri, Sep 08, 2017, 4:35 AM UTC

cwkoss wrote: post #5

I wonder to what extent cuttings are effected by these epigenetic memories? Ex. - Grow plant A. Expose it to stimuli to make it form a 'memory' - Take a cutting from plant A and root it, making plant B. - Test plant B for response to the stimulus. Does plant B have the memory? If so, how many cutting-generations does it take for the memory to decay?

That's very interesting and I'm going to search for answers to this! Thanks for this comment.

Re: The Memories of Plants

#29

Post by mehwoot » Fri, Sep 08, 2017, 5:06 AM UTC

interfixus wrote: post #24

damnfine wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the Vegan shows up! I kid, but the stereotype really holds true all too often. The unsaid assumption in your comment, that I disagree with, is that harvesting animals causes anymore suffering than caring for and harvesting plants (in a humane manner, which admittedly, many facotry farms fail at on either side.)

> And the Vegan shows up! I kid, but the stereotype really holds true all too often And the meat-man with a vengeance shows up. I kid you not, this stereotype holds true all too often. And, may I add, puzzles me absolutely no end. What is it about some people's restrictive dietary choices that regularly sets off these spasms of all too vocal disapproval in the minds of certain people? I do not, as a general rule, eat…

And the meat-man with a vengeance shows up.

Yeah but he only showed up because the vegan made the discussion about veganism. People who eat meat aren't going around making every discussion about eating meat, they just appear when vegans do that.

Re: The Memories of Plants

#30

Post by self_assembly » Fri, Sep 08, 2017, 5:39 AM UTC

damnfine wrote: post #7

asciimo wrote: post #4

A surprisingly common argument against veganism is "but plants feel pain, too," based on interpretations of articles such as this one on Vice [ https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/xd74nd/we-asked-a-botanis... ]. I suppose the argument is that, if there is any amount of cruelty in our consumption, then we may as well surrender to this fact and eat whatever we want. (Also, haha vegans are dumb.) I'm sure this study will…

And the Vegan shows up! I kid, but the stereotype really holds true all too often. The unsaid assumption in your comment, that I disagree with, is that harvesting animals causes anymore suffering than caring for and harvesting plants (in a humane manner, which admittedly, many facotry farms fail at on either side.)

> The unsaid assumption in your comment, that I disagree with, is that harvesting animals causes anymore suffering than caring for and harvesting plants (in a humane manner, which admittedly, many facotry farms fail at on either side.)

Couldn't you argue that since in order to harvest animals you must harvest plants for the animals to eat. So definitely more suffering is produced by harvesting animals. This is amplified even more so when you consider that you have to harvest more plants for producing meat than you would if you just ate the plants.