U.S. probes Uber for possible bribery law violations • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. probes Uber for possible bribery law violations

#21

Post by saghm » Wed, Aug 30, 2017, 2:09 AM UTC

tryingagainbro wrote: post #13

ajdlinux wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about the US, but in Australia, our foreign bribery laws explicitly exempt "facilitation payments", i.e. bribes that are customarily paid to grease the wheels of bureaucracy and get routine government actions done. However, that certainly wouldn't cover anything like this alleged rape doxxing, and it also wouldn't cover bribes intended to secure new business, which are presumably extremely common in coun…

However, that certainly wouldn't cover anything like this alleged rape doxxing The article didn't say anything about the rape case. Getting her info could have cost less than $100, but staying in business in certain countries could run in tens of millions.

> The article didn't say anything about the rape case.

From TFA: "Reuters in June reported that Uber had hired a law firm to investigate how it obtained the medical records of an Indian woman who was raped by an Uber driver in 2014."

> Getting her info could have cost less than $100, but staying in business in certain countries could run in tens of millions.

I'm honestly not sure what point you're trying to make here. Regardless of the calculus, it was morally bankrupt and probably illegal.

Re: U.S. probes Uber for possible bribery law violations

#22

Post by rayiner » Wed, Aug 30, 2017, 2:11 AM UTC

exelius wrote: post #15

mehwoot wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except in this case (if this is what happened??) they're paying a bribe to do something you shouldn't be able to do anyway. This isn't paying a bribe to conduct standard business, they're paying a bribe to access someone's medical records. I don't see how that is anymore acceptable if you're doing it in India than in any Western country.

It is more culturally complex than that. It's easy for us to look at it and moralize with western eyes, but bribery is simply part of the system in some places. People feed their families with bribes. Getting rid of the status quo won't happen overnight, and in the meantime companies have business to do. Being shitty is still being shitty though; and doxing rape victims is pretty shitty.

> It's easy for us to look at it and moralize with western eyes, but bribery is simply part of the system in some places.

Seeing as how it's illegal in India, it's accurate to say that lots of Indians think it is immoral too! My dad left Bangladesh in part because a phone company tech wanted him to pay a bribe to get a second line installed and he didn't want to raise kids in a country like that.

Re: U.S. probes Uber for possible bribery law violations

#23

Post by leggomylibro » Wed, Aug 30, 2017, 2:15 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #14

exelius wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on -- the case in question is in India. Bribes are a way of life there. You literally cannot do business there without paying bribes. Nobody had to tell anyone to pay the bribe; if they're anything like every other company I've worked with over there, they have an official slush fund for this stuff. You just do it. Now, it's pretty abhorrent that they doxed a rape victim; and that behavior is reason enough to in…

> Come on -- the case in question is in India. Bribes are a way of life there Regardless, it's illegal for U.S. (and U.K.) companies to pay bribes to officials in India: http://www.corporatecomplianceinsights.com/5-tips-for-compan... .

And it's probably double-illegal to pay bribes to officials to get them to do illegal things.

It's not like one of their drivers was facing a long wait at the DMV and...encouraged...a bureaucrat to care about their job for a few minutes.

Re: U.S. probes Uber for possible bribery law violations

#24

Post by rayiner » Wed, Aug 30, 2017, 2:16 AM UTC

exelius wrote: post #19

rayiner wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Come on -- the case in question is in India. Bribes are a way of life there Regardless, it's illegal for U.S. (and U.K.) companies to pay bribes to officials in India: http://www.corporatecomplianceinsights.com/5-tips-for-compan... .

While you are technically correct, I've had to personally pay bribes to get a laptop with a bunch of sensitive data thru customs. Importing electronics into India without the right paperwork is illegal, but only the manufacturer can apply for the paperwork. The particular model of laptop was never sold in India (it was some cheap Dell thing - the data was the reason I shipped it). So I paid a nice $50 bribe to the cu…

A culture of bribery undermines a society. It's the kind of moral decay that plays a huge part in holding back developing countries: http://www.thedailystar.net/op-ed/cost-corruption-111523.

Re: U.S. probes Uber for possible bribery law violations

#25

Post by tryingagainbro » Wed, Aug 30, 2017, 2:23 AM UTC

saghm wrote: post #21

tryingagainbro wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, that certainly wouldn't cover anything like this alleged rape doxxing The article didn't say anything about the rape case. Getting her info could have cost less than $100, but staying in business in certain countries could run in tens of millions.

> The article didn't say anything about the rape case. From TFA: "Reuters in June reported that Uber had hired a law firm to investigate how it obtained the medical records of an Indian woman who was raped by an Uber driver in 2014." > Getting her info could have cost less than $100, but staying in business in certain countries could run in tens of millions. I'm honestly not sure what point you're trying to make here…

I believe the link changed, it was a WSJ article first with no mention of the rape case. I doubted that they'd be investigated for small sums of payments.

Re: U.S. probes Uber for possible bribery law violations

#26

Post by exelius » Wed, Aug 30, 2017, 2:30 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #24

exelius wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you are technically correct, I've had to personally pay bribes to get a laptop with a bunch of sensitive data thru customs. Importing electronics into India without the right paperwork is illegal, but only the manufacturer can apply for the paperwork. The particular model of laptop was never sold in India (it was some cheap Dell thing - the data was the reason I shipped it). So I paid a nice $50 bribe to the cu…

A culture of bribery undermines a society. It's the kind of moral decay that plays a huge part in holding back developing countries: http://www.thedailystar.net/op-ed/cost-corruption-111523 .

I don't disagree; but try doing business there without paying bribes.

Re: U.S. probes Uber for possible bribery law violations

#27

Post by chimeracoder » Wed, Aug 30, 2017, 2:39 AM UTC

leggomylibro wrote: post #23

rayiner wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Come on -- the case in question is in India. Bribes are a way of life there Regardless, it's illegal for U.S. (and U.K.) companies to pay bribes to officials in India: http://www.corporatecomplianceinsights.com/5-tips-for-compan... .

And it's probably double-illegal to pay bribes to officials to get them to do illegal things. It's not like one of their drivers was facing a long wait at the DMV and...encouraged...a bureaucrat to care about their job for a few minutes.

> It's not like one of their drivers was facing a long wait at the DMV and...encouraged...a bureaucrat to care about their job for a few minutes.

That's actually potentially legal under US law if the payment is only intended to expedite the process of getting them to do their official duties and they follow the right steps (which includes making appropriate disclosures).

Re: U.S. probes Uber for possible bribery law violations

#28

Post by whipoodle » Wed, Aug 30, 2017, 3:20 AM UTC

dreamcompiler wrote: post #10

Oh wow. FCPA violations. One of the key rules of American business is that you do not dance around with the FCPA [0]. (I suspect many new startup managers are not familiar with the FCPA but you can bet their investors are.) Violations of the FCPA do not just result in fines, they result in actual jail time for whomever did the bribing, whether they be individual low-level employees, contractors, or CEOs. That said, t…

They've crossed a number of bright lines and they're still here. I don't mean this in a good way.

Re: U.S. probes Uber for possible bribery law violations

#29

Post by JumpCrisscross » Wed, Aug 30, 2017, 3:21 AM UTC

chimeracoder wrote: post #27

leggomylibro wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it's probably double-illegal to pay bribes to officials to get them to do illegal things. It's not like one of their drivers was facing a long wait at the DMV and...encouraged...a bureaucrat to care about their job for a few minutes.

> It's not like one of their drivers was facing a long wait at the DMV and...encouraged...a bureaucrat to care about their job for a few minutes. That's actually potentially legal under US law if the payment is only intended to expedite the process of getting them to do their official duties and they follow the right steps (which includes making appropriate disclosures).

As others have mentioned, that exemption is narrow to the point of non-existence. It is very difficult to do business in India.

Re: U.S. probes Uber for possible bribery law violations

#30

Post by JumpCrisscross » Wed, Aug 30, 2017, 3:23 AM UTC

exelius wrote: post #15

mehwoot wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except in this case (if this is what happened??) they're paying a bribe to do something you shouldn't be able to do anyway. This isn't paying a bribe to conduct standard business, they're paying a bribe to access someone's medical records. I don't see how that is anymore acceptable if you're doing it in India than in any Western country.

It is more culturally complex than that. It's easy for us to look at it and moralize with western eyes, but bribery is simply part of the system in some places. People feed their families with bribes. Getting rid of the status quo won't happen overnight, and in the meantime companies have business to do. Being shitty is still being shitty though; and doxing rape victims is pretty shitty.

> bribery is simply part of the system in some places

Part Indian here. You can definitely lead an ethical life in India. It's harder. But not impossible. Characterising every Indian as corrupt by nature because it's their "way of life" is a cop out.